Israel / Palestine

[Nodack]

You are a Ukrainian soldier on the front lines with Russia looking out over the area in front of you. You spot a Russian soldier walking towards you with an assault rifle. Then you notice he has his wife and two small children with him. He continues to walk toward you until he sees you and starts to fire his weapon at you. Hit hits and kills your buddy next to you. What do you do? I know I would do. I would try to hit him and if I accidentally hit his family it is on him for intentionally putting his family in harms way thinking having a human shield would protect him. He’s not home protecting his family. He is actively trying to kill you on your soil using his own family as a human shield. Some will have sympathy for him and his family. I feel sympathy for his family. I feel anger that someone would intentionally put their own family in harms way to get away with trying to kill others. That’s the way I feel about the Israel Palestinian crisis.

[Split T]

I’m not going to pretend to know the answer here. I’ve been trying to get informed and it’s hard to know what real. I think it sucks that innocent people on both sides are dying because of decisions made by the leaders of both sides.

Hamas definitely seems to be the worst of all parties involved, but I don’t think Israel is completely innocent here. I understand what you are saying nodack but I feel you might be unfairly putting blame on innocent Palestinian citizens. Some are certainly in favor of Hamas and what they are doing, but most of them probably have no control or say on what Hamas does and where Hamas hides.

[Nodack]

The entire government of the Palestinian people is run by Hamas. They are the political leaders, the infrastructure. They run everything and it has been that way for decades. I don’t see any Palestinian backlash to Hamas attacking Israel from Gaza. Hamas has been attacking Israel with the blessings of the Palestinian people for many decades. They are allowed to fire thousands of rockets at Israel without fear of reprisals thanks to their human shields. Those defending Hamas don’t even care that Hamas fires rockets into Israel. They did a sneak attack targeting women and children and killed them as brutally as they could think of. Oh, that’s too bad. Who is Hamas targeting with those missiles? They are targeting anyone in Israel. They couldn’t possibly care any less who they kill. People are so upset that Israel would fire missiles in retaliation.
We the people are responsible for whatever our military does. We elected the leaders and they send in the military if they think it’s needed. They represent us. When our military attacks it is an attack from all of us.

Hamas can attack Israel all they want from Gaza. Kill as many civilians as they feel like and Israel isn’t supposed to do anything about it.

I think the Palestinian people are partially responsible for Hamas’s actions. Hamas is holding the civilian people responsible for Israel’s actions. Hamas targets civilians and that’s called defending the cause. Israel targets Hamas and kills civilians and that’s called murder.

[Split T]

We the people are responsible for whatever our military does. We elected the leaders and yythey send in the military if they think it’s needed. They represent us. When our military attacks it is an attack from all of us.

I definitely don’t agree with this and this is probably where the disconnect is.

[Nodack]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

[JeremyG]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

The problem with what you're saying is that it sounds like you're opening the door to collective punishment, which was outlawed by the Geneva Conventions.

[Split T]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

I am not the US government/military. I did nothing of the sort. It’s not a collective WE.

[Nodack]

Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator. Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions. Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Geneva Conventions and Article 6 of the Additional Protocol II.[1][2]

You mean like if some terrorist group attacked the US and we attacked some other country in response and killed hundreds of thousands of their people? That would be Iraq. We went into Afghanistan too and killed the terrorists and lots of other people like the Taliban who had nothing to do with Al Queda or 9/11. The Taliban were giving Al Qaeda safe harbor to attack from and we decided that they were partially responsible and killed them.

Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions.

That is a grey line. We bombed the crap out of civilians in Germany and Japan intentionally targeting them. We used incendiary bombs in Japan because their cities would burn to the ground better. We decided that the German and Japanese people were directly associated with their military and they became targets. Hamas IS the leader of the Palestinian people. Those people are quite aware of what Hamas is doing and has been doing for decades with their blessings. Doesn’t collective punishment work both ways? Hamas is definitely targeting Israeli civilians and punishing them for the Israeli military’s actions. Isn’t that the exact same thing? The rule only applies to Israel and not Hamas/Palestinians?

That’s why I say WE are responsible for what our military does. They are an extension of US. Some don’t agree. You are wrong and you don’t get a choice. That’s what it means to be American. And it makes me a little sad that people feel that way. That’s why I get so caught up in politics. Our leaders are an extension of US and I really don’t like the direction America has taken in the past decade. Trump and his Maga cult represented America for four years and it was embarrassing and sad and still true.

[Nodack]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

I am not the US government/military. I did nothing of the sort. It’s not a collective WE.

I couldn’t possibly disagree with you anymore than I do.

[JeremyG]

Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator. Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions. Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Geneva Conventions and Article 6 of the Additional Protocol II.[1][2]

You mean like if some terrorist group attacked the US and we attacked some other country in response and killed hundreds of thousands of their people? That would be Iraq. We went into Afghanistan too and killed the terrorists and lots of other people like the Taliban who had nothing to do with Al Queda or 9/11. The Taliban were giving Al Qaeda safe harbor to attack from and we decided that they were partially responsible and killed them.

Many people internationally accused Bush of committing war crimes.

Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions.

That is a grey line. We bombed the crap out of civilians in Germany and Japan intentionally targeting them. We used incendiary bombs in Japan because their cities would burn to the ground better. We decided that the German and Japanese people were directly associated with their military and they became targets.

And the Geneva Convention was enacted after World War II (1949), in response to that war.

Hamas IS the leader of the Palestinian people. Those people are quite aware of what Hamas is doing and has been doing for decades with their blessings. Doesn’t collective punishment work both ways? Hamas is definitely targeting Israeli civilians and punishing them for the Israeli military’s actions. Isn’t that the exact same thing? The rule only applies to Israel and not Hamas/Palestinians?

No. What makes you think any of us are defending the atrocities committed by Hamas? Their attack was clearly illegal and evil.

[Split T]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

I am not the US government/military. I did nothing of the sort. It’s not a collective WE.

I couldn’t possibly disagree with you anymore than I do.

So as an American I can blame you for Trump trying to overthrow the election? I can blame you if Trump gets re-elected and starts world war 3?

I think that’s insane. The American people elect the leaders but they can’t control what the leaders do.

The 9/11 terrorist attack was a response to American politics for decades…so it’s yours and my fault that happened?

I’m trying to be dramatic because I really don’t understand your point and I am trying to.

[Mori Chu]

Israel cuts off Gaza's communication access. Now we likely won't hear much about upcoming killings and atrocities due to the blackout.

[Mori Chu]

UN experts say Israel's strikes on Gaza amount to 'collective punishment'

GENEVA, Oct 12 (Reuters) - A group of independent United Nations experts on Thursday condemned violence against civilians in Israel and deplored the "collective punishment" of reprisal strikes against Gaza.

While condemning the "horrific crimes committed by Hamas", the group said that Israel had resorted to "indiscriminate military attacks against the already exhausted Palestinian people of Gaza".

"This amounts to collective punishment. There is no justification for violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians, whether by Hamas or Israeli forces. This is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime."

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-expert ... 023-10-12/

I have a lot of respect for Nodack and appreciate hearing his views and opinions. But in this thread he is openly offering support for well established war crimes.

[JeremyG]

The bombings that are killing so many civilians are bad enough, but the worst part is the cutting off of all water, food, electricity, fuel, and now communications for the 2.2 million residents of Gaza. They will literally starve to death or die of dehydration or lack of medical care if (a much more enormous amount of) humanitarian aid is not allowed in by Israel.

[Shabazz]

UN experts say Israel's strikes on Gaza amount to 'collective punishment'

GENEVA, Oct 12 (Reuters) - A group of independent United Nations experts on Thursday condemned violence against civilians in Israel and deplored the "collective punishment" of reprisal strikes against Gaza.

While condemning the "horrific crimes committed by Hamas", the group said that Israel had resorted to "indiscriminate military attacks against the already exhausted Palestinian people of Gaza".

"This amounts to collective punishment. There is no justification for violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians, whether by Hamas or Israeli forces. This is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime."

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-expert ... 023-10-12/

I have a lot of respect for Nodack and appreciate hearing his views and opinions. But in this thread he is openly offering support for well established war crimes.

The UN lost credibility as an unbiased source a long time ago. They are about to name Iran as Chair of the U.N. Human Rights Council Social Forum. Other countries on the UNHRC include Cuba, China and Sudan. It's a feckless joke of an organization that lives to criticize Israel. Here's a stat from UN Watch, an NGO that monitors the UN: Since 2015, the General Assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticizing Israel, mainly over its treatment of the Palestinians, its relationships with neighboring countries and other alleged wrongdoings. Over the same period, it has passed 68 resolutions against all other countries.

[Nodack]

I don’t think you get a choice. I didn’t like attacking Iraq. But WE did. That to me is like saying the debt is huge but, I’m not responsible for any of it and refuse to pay taxes because I didn’t do it.

I am not the US government/military. I did nothing of the sort. It’s not a collective WE.

I couldn’t possibly disagree with you anymore than I do.

So as an American I can blame you for Trump trying to overthrow the election? I can blame you if Trump gets re-elected and starts world war 3?

I think that’s insane. The American people elect the leaders but they can’t control what the leaders do.

The 9/11 terrorist attack was a response to American politics for decades…so it’s yours and my fault that happened?

I’m trying to be dramatic because I really don’t understand your point and I am trying to.

I am saying if we get into a war with Russia, China or whomever that they won’t give a rats ass if you tell them you don’t support our government or military or care who you voted for. They will consider you an American and put you in the same category as every other American.

Blame me for Trump? You can’t blame me. I didn’t vote for him. People from other countries can blame me because I am an American and America voted for him. Same with our other leaders. See the difference? WE the people. All of us. All of us are Americans whether you consider yourself part of America or not.

9/11 was a response to American politics. We are Americans. The terrorists didn’t target politicians or the military. They targeted Americans. Our President and our leaders represent US. WE as in America elected them. It seems super basic to me. I can’t believe you don’t get it.

I am sure there are some in Iran/Hamas/Palestinians that didn’t agree with the Hamas attack. They were outvoted. If Israel catches a Hamas soldier are they going to ask if he voted to attack Israel or not? No, they won’t care and they wouldn’t believe that anyway. They will only care that he is Hamas. We blame Iran for funding Hamas. Do we only blame the guy at the top who made the decision or do we blame Iran in general. If we get into a war with Iran will we only attack their politicians or in the case of Iran the ayatollah? Assassinating leaders is also a crime isn’t it? Who did Hamas attack? Israeli leaders or any Jew would do? Some Israeli don’t support Netanyahu and his political ambitions. Hamas didn’t ask who they voted for before gunning them down. They just wanted to kill Jews. Any Jews.

[Nodack]

I have a lot of respect for Nodack and appreciate hearing his views and opinions. But in this thread he is openly offering support for well established war crimes.

I normally don’t like war crimes. What Hamas did was definitely a war crime in my book. Intentionally slaughtering women and children gleefully is a war crime in my book. Their supporters call it defending themselves against Israel. That is total BS. Launching thousands of deadly missiles into Israel all the time and not caring in the slightest bit who you kill is a war crime. It is labeled defending themselves against the aggressive Israelis. That’s bs.

Israel has a right to defend themselves. Apparently I am the only one here who thinks so. Hamas’s last attack was inhuman by any standards except Palestinian supporters standards. They celebrated all over the world. Even in the US. It totally disgusts me.

[Superbone]

Israel has a right to defend themselves. Apparently I am the only one here who thinks so.

Huh? That's not true. I thought that was the majority opinion? The only question being how the defense is carried out.

[Nodack]

I should have rephrased that. Israel is allowed to defend itself on its own land but retaliation to attacks on them is strictly prohibited.

[Cap]

I am sure there are some in Iran/Hamas/Palestinians that didn’t agree with the Hamas attack. They were outvoted.

FWIW, the vast majority of Gazites were either not yet born or too young to vote the last time an election was held. They were not able to vote and were outvoted by people who have long since passed from the earth.

And it wasn’t exactly a fair election in the first place.