Terror attack in Paris

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Dan H
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Dan H »

Ghost wrote:
Ghost wrote:Indy, I never responded to which of dad's points it was I was siding with. It's that one. Offending people should not be a crime, and those who think it should be deserve to be offended.

This is why I don't post from my phone. DAN'S points. Not dad.
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Dan H
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Dan H »


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Dan H
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Dan H »

I mean seriously - THIS should be mocked.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/offbeat/s ... ar-AA84xyX

Ghost
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Ghost »

Dan H wrote:
Ghost wrote:
Ghost wrote:Indy, I never responded to which of dad's points it was I was siding with. It's that one. Offending people should not be a crime, and those who think it should be deserve to be offended.

This is why I don't post from my phone. DAN'S points. Not dad.
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
Haha :D

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Furlanfufi
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Furlanfufi »

Guys, I know I don't post very often, but I want to say that is great to see the level of arguments and the educated discussion of this subject.

I couldn't help myself and entered some arguments kn facebook about that, because here in Brazil, the discussion is not revolving around the religious views and Muslim x European culture, but blaming the victim a lot, and "the limits of free speech".

Of course there aren't many Muslims around here, but it's a relief to read arguments that tries to understand how can this never happen again instead of reading how cartoonists, comedians, anyone shouldn't "offend" one another.

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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

. . . again, so?

The movie "Dogma" portrayed the Christian God as a skeeball-loving Alanis Morisette and skewered the Catholic church. Were there Christian riots over it? Nope.

If you're rioting over a portrayal of your divine being in a youtube video, that's an indictment of your belief system and maturity. Again, only one cultural group can be expected to react violently to criticism and satire, and your link proves that!
You are 100% correct IMO. Most Christians don't seem to want to kill everybody that mocks God or draws a likeness of him. It does say that in the Koran. It does appear that Islam's God is pretty insecure and petty. Christians for the most part seemed to have learned to ignore all the violent parts in the old testament, where Muslims seem to take the violent parts in the Koran more seriously. Is it an indictment of their belief system and maturity? It is to you Dan, but I doubt it is to the billion Muslims. They believe the entire book. You Christians cherry picked the parts you want to believe in. Does that make them or you more faithful? I suppose the Moderate Muslims are ignoring the violent parts too making them cherry pickers and less faithful.

You guys say we shouldn't hold back criticism of religions. It's OK to insult somebody else's religion. It's our freedom of expression. Ok, my take. Both books are 100% pure fantasy to me and written by men trying to control other people like the thousands of other religions throughout history have done. Nobody has heard from either gods since those books have been written. Did they take an extended vacation? Millions murdered, floods, earthquakes, wars, famine, plagues and not a word from either god in how many years? I can't even fathom how so many people can be duped for so long into believing in either religion. I thought the Ten Commandments was a great idea. A set of basic rules to follow to be a decent human being and if you break these rules to suffer in hell for eternity. Brilliant!

I call myself an agnostic. I have seen some weird stuff on TV and know a couple of close people that claim to see spirits of dead people etc. and I have seen a few shows like Long Island Medium that kind of blow my mind. I understand that there is a lot that we don't fully understand about life and death. That doesn't mean I pick a god and start praying to one. My scientific side says it's complete BS. All religions. I guess people need something to believe in. They don't want this life to be it. This life is hard and scary. It's nice to believe that if you follow the rules when you die you will get to go to heaven and have sex with 40 virgins or play a harp in a cloud and have 100% peaceful, loving perfect afterlife where all problems just melt away into pure bliss.

One of my best friends is a devout Christian. He's also a total MSNBC Democrat. I heard all Democrats were Atheists, so he must be the only Christian Democrat in the entire country. Anyway, he once told me that if I didn't take the name Jesus Christ as my lord and savior that I was going to hell. I said really? What if I was born on a small desert island and never heard of Christianity? Would I still go to hell? He said yes. That right there proved to me the Bible was BS. Bow down to me or I will have you tortured for all eternity even if you didn't even know I existed before you died. What kind of god it that petty? Sounds like some other god I have heard of. They sure do like to threaten everybody into submission. Sounds more like men to me.

Anyway, Islam is BS, but there is 1.8 Billion of them, so I try not to piss them off. Christianity is BS too, but there is 2.2 Billion of them and I have to live with them, so I try not to piss them off too. Now that I have not held back my criticism thanks to you guys I'm sure I have offended plenty of you. You asked, no, demanded we all offend whatever religion we want because it's our duty to stand up for free speech. I feel good that I said it. Do you feel good that I said it?

A funny note. I went on a military DOD tour playing for the troops several years back and had to fill out forms and one of them asked my religion. I told the female leader of the band that I was Agnostic. She told me that she couldn't put that down and that I would have to pick one. I picked Lutheran because I was Baptized Lutheran when I was born. I should have stood up for myself, but didn't care. If it made them happy they could call me whatever they wanted. Maybe they wanted to know just in case something happened to me and needed last rights, so I could go to heaven properly and get my bliss. I thought it was a little intimidating that I couldn't be myself and put down Agnostic, so as not to offend somebody.

Christians are nuts. Muslims are even more nuts.
It's a relief to read arguments that tries to understand how can this never happen again instead of reading how cartoonists, comedians, anyone shouldn't "offend" one another.
How do we understand how this can never happen again? Christians offending Muslims isn't going to help make extremist Muslims less violent IMO. Will it be agreeing to their demands? I suppose and if they are terrorists we shouldn't give in an inch, so we should all double and triple our efforts to offend them as much as humanly possible to make sure Muslims get even more angry. Will that stop what happened in France from ever happening again? Most likely not IMO, but at least we didn't give in at all and that's what's really important.
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Furlanfufi
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Furlanfufi »

Dack, I agree with you. But here in Brazil, the discussion is all about "they should not make cartoons, we don't have the right to offend religions or minorities", and so on.

Here the discussion is about the role of religion on it.

That's why is a relief to read a discussion like that here.

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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

Dan H wrote:
Ghost wrote:
Ghost wrote:Indy, I never responded to which of dad's points it was I was siding with. It's that one. Offending people should not be a crime, and those who think it should be deserve to be offended.

This is why I don't post from my phone. DAN'S points. Not dad.
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
That was great Dan.

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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

i wish I had the time to respond the way I want to here. I need to save it for another time... damn.

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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

Andy, you need to show up to the game get-together tonight so we can further this discussion with Dack. And maybe we can facetime with Dan to get a good discussion going...

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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

It has been a great discussion. I know we push each other's buttons a little bit, but it's been a million time more civil than any CNN/ FOX/Politico thread. They never discuss. It's all insults and nothing more at those places. We are at least somewhat rational and show some me respect for each other here.

And Andy/Ghost does need to show up.
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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

Dack, I agree with you. But here in Brazil, the discussion is all about "they should not make cartoons, we don't have the right to offend religions or minorities", and so on.

Here the discussion is about the role of religion on it.

That's why is a relief to read a discussion like that here.
Thanks for participating. Glad to have you here.

We do have the right to offend who we want. My point is that doing so only makes the two sides further apart and causes some extremists to want to commit violence against us. We ask how we can stop the violence and then egg the violence on. Not very constructive IMO.

Then again look any any apposing sides like Democrats and Republicans. They fight like cats and dogs and almost never show any respect for each other. The two sides are as far apart as I have ever seen yet. Are they trying to bridge the gap and come together as Americans? Hell no. Their goal is to divide and have us pick a side and start hating everybody on the other side. We humans love confrontation.
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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

We do have the right to offend who we want. My point is that doing so only makes the two sides further apart and causes some extremists to want to commit violence against us. We ask how we can stop the violence and then egg the violence on. Not very constructive IMO.
I don't think that is a fair argument. It quickly leads to never criticizing anything, which is the worst thing we can do. Because that leads to complacency, and prevents change from ever happening. Conflict breeds change, and a people that don't change are destined to not be around for long.

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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

These two religions have been around for a long time. On a scale of 1-10 how well did they get along in the early years? 3? And now 1500 years later where do they stand? 3? They appose each other. What change do we really expect to happen realistically? I think the best we can hope for is that we leave each other alone and ignore each other. That is 't going to happen.

Having such a large presence of American soldiers on Muslim lands fighting Muslims is the Crusades to many Muslims. To them we have already declared war on Muslims. To us we are spreading Democracy, taking down evil tyrants and protecting the worlds oil supply. To them we are just invading Christians coming to pilliage their lands again.

Conflict does bring about change, but the change isn't always good. Take the Arab Spring. It seems like a good thing that the people have risen up to topple their oppressive governments, but then there is a power vacuum that needs to be filled and you never know who is going to fill that vacuum. Many thousands have to die first and sometimes that only leads to more fighting amongst the victors and a new leadership more oppressive than the one toppled.

What is ISIS? A group of vicious terrorists trying to carve out their own country based on strict Sharia law. There are many thousands spanning several countries now and they are well funded from their looting Iraq's treasures and oil. We have already killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq alone where there were no terrorists before we started in the Iraq war. Now they claim to have over 200,000 members of ISIS. Many of those terrorists are ex Iraqi military who left after Iraq's leader sacked everybody who wasn't in his party after the Americans left. That was a major dumb move by Maliki. He destroyed all oitpr troops fought for in a short period of time. We simply dismiss them all as terrorists and think if we can just kill enough of them terrorism will stop. I think we have proved the opposite true. The more we kill the more that join. Our strategy is failing miserably.
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Dan H
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Dan H »

I think this Muslim disagrees with Nodack on the topic of Muslims and free speech.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ve-TV.html

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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

Finding somebody to disagree with me shouldn't be very hard.

Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV


He is telling Muslim immigrants that move to the West and do not appreciate their freedom to F*** off. I agree with him. Don't move here if it sucks so bad. I still don't see how he is disagreeing with me saying it's not a good idea to insult Islam. He doesn't say we should insult his religion. He says Muslims should appreciate living in the West if they move there. I think there should be free speech. I'm still not going to walk up to a Hell Angels gang get together and start insulting them just because the law says I can. The law says they can't beat the crap out of me for insulting them, but as I lay in the hospital all broken up I might say to myself that that was a bad idea.
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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:These two religions have been around for a long time. On a scale of 1-10 how well did they get along in the early years? 3? And now 1500 years later where do they stand? 3? They appose each other. What change do we really expect to happen realistically? I think the best we can hope for is that we leave each other alone and ignore each other. That is 't going to happen.

Having such a large presence of American soldiers on Muslim lands fighting Muslims is the Crusades to many Muslims. To them we have already declared war on Muslims. To us we are spreading Democracy, taking down evil tyrants and protecting the worlds oil supply. To them we are just invading Christians coming to pilliage their lands again.

Conflict does bring about change, but the change isn't always good. Take the Arab Spring. It seems like a good thing that the people have risen up to topple their oppressive governments, but then there is a power vacuum that needs to be filled and you never know who is going to fill that vacuum. Many thousands have to die first and sometimes that only leads to more fighting amongst the victors and a new leadership more oppressive than the one toppled.

What is ISIS? A group of vicious terrorists trying to carve out their own country based on strict Sharia law. There are many thousands spanning several countries now and they are well funded from their looting Iraq's treasures and oil. We have already killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq alone where there were no terrorists before we started in the Iraq war. Now they claim to have over 200,000 members of ISIS. Many of those terrorists are ex Iraqi military who left after Iraq's leader sacked everybody who wasn't in his party after the Americans left. That was a major dumb move by Maliki. He destroyed all oitpr troops fought for in a short period of time. We simply dismiss them all as terrorists and think if we can just kill enough of them terrorism will stop. I think we have proved the opposite true. The more we kill the more that join. Our strategy is failing miserably.
I agree with a lot of this... still don't see how never criticizing anyone would help, though.

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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

Finding somebody to disagree with me shouldn't be very hard.
:lol:

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Nodack
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Nodack »

I agree with a lot of this... still don't see how never criticizing anyone would help, though.
"I think the Muslim religion is violent."- Criticizing

A media site drawing naked cartoons of Mohamed their God and posting it knowing that is a death sentence in Islam isn't criticizing, It's intentionally pushing their buttons hoping it insults them. To me there is a difference.

I don't believe in Christianity, but I am not going to make a cartoon of Jesus having sex with a chicken and post it on the web. That wouldn't be criticism, that would be intentionally trying to insult Christians just because I can. It would make me a serious asshole, but it would be legal.

Not insulting them intentionally can't hurt. Not invading their lands and killing hundreds of thousands of them might even go a little further.
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Indy
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Re: Terror attack in Paris

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
I agree with a lot of this... still don't see how never criticizing anyone would help, though.
"I think the Muslim religion is violent."- Criticizing

A media site drawing naked cartoons of Mohamed their God and posting it knowing that is a death sentence in Islam isn't criticizing, It's intentionally pushing their buttons hoping it insults them. To me there is a difference.

I don't believe in Christianity, but I am not going to make a cartoon of Jesus having sex with a chicken and post it on the web. That wouldn't be criticism, that would be intentionally trying to insult Christians just because I can. It would make me a serious asshole, but it would be legal.

Not insulting them intentionally can't hurt. Not invading their lands and killing hundreds of thousands of them might even go a little further.
I think #2 is the way to go. But you seem to be confusing a guy that has enough money to get his voice heard, and a head of state.

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