Flynn resigns

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In2ition
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by In2ition »

ShelC wrote:Bannon believes war with China is inevitable. Tillerson raised a lot of eyebrows with his comments but most people say he's not even knowledgeable about China and the situation with those islands. Trump's already said the One China policy is important and Mattis has remained firm on US commitments to Japan and US allies in the region without putting China on the defensive. China, for its part, has praised Mattis and wants to work through diplomacy. Seems to be just another example of different ideas, philosophies and factions within the Trump Admin. Hopefully, Mattis wins all the arguments because he's the only one who seems to truly understand the global landscape militarily.

With Russia, what would the fallout be if evidence of collusion is found leading all the way to Trump? Impeachment and Pence takes over? Could be possible, but I don't think probable. Flynn is the first to go, there will be others for sure. Whether they get to Trump remains to be seen. He might think he can just go to court and battle for years they way he's always done, while handling his business.
What is the real story about those islands? What's your opinion ShelC?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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3rdside
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by 3rdside »

I like John pilger and his moral crusades even though his conclusions go too far beyond what the 'facts' probably suggest i.e. he seems biased against the west, but it's not hard to understand why he's like this after a life time spent documenting the west's atrocities.

Either way, he always raises interesting points:




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In2ition
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by In2ition »

3rdside wrote:I like John pilger and his moral crusades even though his conclusions go too far beyond what the 'facts' probably suggest i.e. he seems biased against the west, but it's not hard to understand why he's like this after a life time spent documenting the west's atrocities.

Either way, he always raises interesting points:




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I certainly hope his conclusion is wrong. I don't want to see a war with anyone.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Nodack
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by Nodack »

Wait, the sanctions against Russia didn't happen until well after Trump won the election, not during it as you assert.
I beg to differ.

https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/

Russia and Ukraine Sanctions, Department of the Treasury

Executive Order 13660, signed on March 6, 2014, authorizes sanctions on individuals and entities responsible for violating the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, or for stealing the assets of the Ukrainian people. These sanctions put in place restrictions on the travel of certain individuals and officials and showed our continued efforts to impose a cost on Russia and those responsible for the situation in Crimea.

Executive Order 13661, issued on March 17, 2014, under the national emergency with respect to Ukraine that find that the actions and policies of the Russian government with respect to Ukraine -– including through the deployment of Russian military forces in the Crimea region of Ukraine –- undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets.

A new Executive Order, "Blocking Property of Additional Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine," issued on March 20, 2014, expanded the scope of the national emergency declared in Executive Order 13660 of March 6, 2014, and expanded by Executive Order 13661 of March 16, 2014, finding that the actions and policies of the Government of the Russian Federation, including its purported annexation of Crimea and its use of force in Ukraine, continue to undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets, and thereby constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.

Executive Order 13685 was also issued. Utilizing these Executive Orders, the United States has steadily increased the diplomatic and financial costs of Russia’s aggressive actions towards Ukraine. We have designated a number of Russian and Ukrainian entities, including 14 defense companies and individuals in Putin’s inner circle, as well as imposed targeted sanctions limiting certain financing to six of Russia’s largest banks and four energy companies. We have also suspended credit finance that encourages exports to Russia and financing for economic development projects in Russia, and are now prohibiting the provision, exportation, or reexportation of goods, services (not including financial services), or technology in support of exploration or production for deepwater, Arctic offshore, or shale projects that have the potential to produce oil in the Russian Federation, or in maritime area claimed by the Russian Federation and extending from its territory, and that involve five major Russian energy companies.

These actions, in close coordination with our EU and international partners, send a strong message to the Russian government that there are consequences for their actions that threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. The United States, together with international partners, will continue to stand by the Ukrainian government until Russia abides by its international obligations. The United States is prepared to take additional steps to impose further political and economic costs. A secure Ukraine, integrated with Europe and enjoying good relations with all its neighbors, is in the interests of the United States, Europe, and Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... ian_crisis

First round of sanctions: March/April 2014[edit]
On 6 March 2014, US president Barack Obama, invoking, inter alia, the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and the National Emergencies Act, signed an executive order that declared a national emergency and ordered sanctions, including travel bans and the freezing of their U.S. assets, against not-yet-specified individuals, later to be determined by the Secretary of the Treasury (in consultation with the Secretary of State) who had "asserted governmental authority in the Crimean region without the authorization of the Government of Ukraine" and whose actions were found, inter alia, to "undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine".[8][9]

The US, the EU and Canada introduced the first round of specifically targeted sanctions on 17 March 2014,[10][11][12] the day after the Crimean referendum and a few hours before the Russian president Vladimir Putin, by signing a decree recognizing Crimea as an independent state, laid the groundwork for its annexation by Russia.

Second round of sanctions: April 2014[edit]
On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, executive chairman of the Russian state oil company Rosneft, and seventeen Russian companies.[24] On the same day, the European Union issued travel bans against a further fifteen individuals.[25] In connection with this, the EU issued a paper stating the aims of the sanctions. The EU states that their "sanctions are not punitive, but designed to bring about a change in policy or activity by the target country, entities or individuals. Measures are therefore always targeted at such policies or activities, the means to conduct them and those responsible for them. At the same time, the EU makes every effort to minimise adverse consequences for the civilian population or for legitimate activities".[26]


Third round of sanctions: 2014–present[edit]
In response to the escalating War in Donbass, on 17 July 2014 the United States extended its transactions ban to two major Russian energy firms, Rosneft and Novatek, and to two banks, Gazprombank and Vnesheconombank.[27] United States also urged EU leaders to join the Third Wave[28] leading EU to start drafting European Sanctions a day before.[29][30] On 25 July, the EU officially expanded its sanctions to an additional fifteen individuals and eighteen entities,[31] followed by an additional eight individuals and three entities on 30 July.[32] On 31 July 2014 the EU introduced the third round of sanctions which included an embargo on arms and related material, and embargo on dual-use goods and technology intended for military use or a military end user, a ban on imports of arms and related material, controls on export of equipment for the oil industry, and a restriction on the issuance of and trade in certain bonds, equity or similar financial instruments on a maturity greater than 90 days (On September 2014 lowered to 30 days) [33]

I have seen not one single piece of evidence presented to say that anything of the British agent said was truthful at all.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/10/politics/ ... index.html
For the first time, US investigators say they have corroborated some of the communications detailed in a 35-page dossier compiled by a former British intelligence agent, multiple current and former US law enforcement and intelligence officials tell CNN.

None of the newly learned information relates to the salacious allegations in the dossier. Rather it relates to conversations between foreign nationals. The dossier details about a dozen conversations between senior Russian officials and other Russian individuals. Sources would not confirm which specific conversations were intercepted or the content of those discussions due to the classified nature of US intelligence collection programs.
But the intercepts do confirm that some of the conversations described in the dossier took place between the same individuals on the same days and from the same locations as detailed in the dossier, according to the officials.

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Nodack
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by Nodack »

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/15/politics/ ... index.html

The Defense Department might propose that the US send conventional ground combat forces into northern Syria for the first time to speed up the fight against ISIS, CNN has learned.

The move would significantly alter US military operations in Syria if approved and could put troops on the ground within weeks.

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In2ition
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Re: Flynn resigns

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Ok, I assumed it was the samctions that Obama put on Russia after the election, and from what I thought was reported wete talking about those too. Also, still haven't seen any evidence. The CIA lies to the State Department, the State Department lies to the CIA, and both lie to the WH. Standard procedure.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Nodack
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by Nodack »

In2ition wrote:Ok, I assumed it was the samctions that Obama put on Russia after the election, and from what I thought was reported wete talking about those too. Also, still haven't seen any evidence. The CIA lies to the State Department, the State Department lies to the CIA, and both lie to the WH. Standard procedure.
I think Trump and the GOP have done their job. They managed to convince half of America that every single person that works for the government or the media that isn't a right wing Republican from Trumps team is on the take and everything the say or do is a lie which is part of some grand Liberal Communist scheme to destroy the world. The GOP first started it but, Trump has taken that motif and put it on steroids. I think it's really dangerous. Everybody except Trump seems to be fake at their jobs and lying about everything. Why do we believe what he says? Because he said it. What proof does he have of any of the BS he says? Absolutely none ever other than him just saying it.

This notion that we can't believe anything our Intelligence community says or that all our judges are on the take, the IRS is on the take, the FBI is on the take, our political voting system is on the take, CNN is fake news and everybody else that Trump has claimed is on the take is getting ridiculous. Trump has been totally busted lying hundreds of times in the past year about just about everything he has ever talked about and yet we are supposed to take his word on everything and not believe ANYBODY else. Thats is so insulting to anybody with a brain.

If people are only going to believe what Trump says and everybody else is lying then whats the point of discussing anything else.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by Mori Chu »

I still can't believe this guy got elected. We *KNEW* he and his team had creepy ties to Russia, knew it as far back as summer 2016. We had the tape of him bragging about grabbing women's pussies. We had so much dirt on this guy, but America still somehow elected him leader of the country. I don't get it. I guess Comey and the email stuff being the last story before the election hit did the necessary damage.

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Nodack
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Re: Flynn resigns

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I think Trump is a good salesman. He told a certain group what they wanted to hear and sold it with a straight face.

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ShelC
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by ShelC »

In2ition wrote:
ShelC wrote:Bannon believes war with China is inevitable. Tillerson raised a lot of eyebrows with his comments but most people say he's not even knowledgeable about China and the situation with those islands. Trump's already said the One China policy is important and Mattis has remained firm on US commitments to Japan and US allies in the region without putting China on the defensive. China, for its part, has praised Mattis and wants to work through diplomacy. Seems to be just another example of different ideas, philosophies and factions within the Trump Admin. Hopefully, Mattis wins all the arguments because he's the only one who seems to truly understand the global landscape militarily.

With Russia, what would the fallout be if evidence of collusion is found leading all the way to Trump? Impeachment and Pence takes over? Could be possible, but I don't think probable. Flynn is the first to go, there will be others for sure. Whether they get to Trump remains to be seen. He might think he can just go to court and battle for years they way he's always done, while handling his business.
What is the real story about those islands? What's your opinion ShelC?
Just going back to this...we can't do anything about the islands now. Attacking them or placing restrictions on them would lead to a confrontation. Maybe there's some deal or incentive we can work out where they de-militarize the islands, but I'd say that's doubtful. If they're looking at using them for defense purposes and not to intimidate or use offensively, then whatever. But these island have been built during the Obama years and he did nothing to address them. Now, we have to deal with them. Same as Crimea/Ukraine, same as Syria. Not trying to turn this into a bash post about Obama, but these are the fruits of his (non-existent) foreign policy.

Putting boots on the ground in Syria would be a disaster and something Russia probably wants. Too little, too late.

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Nodack
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Re: Flynn resigns

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Putting boots on the ground would be a disaster.

Putting boots on the ground in the islands would be what?

Putting boots on the ground in Crimera would be what?

You say Obama did nothing. That isn't true. If Obama declared war on Russia and China and sent in battalions of US troops would you be praising him now? Of course not. You would be saying what an idiot he is for starting a world war. Obama has gone through the normal rounds of formal protests, multiple rounds of sanctions on Russia and has beefed up ties with alliances in the South China Sea along with patroling the disputed islands with our navy to show we aren't intimidated.

Obama's South China Sea Strategy Is Working
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... king-16132

Why a forceful U.S. response to China’s artificial island-building won’t float
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2 ... ont-float/

If Obama was obviously weak in his response to both of those situations why don't you tell us what Obama should have done differently? Be more forcefull? What doesn that mean? Start a war? Complain louder?

Trump is President now. What is he doing to stop all these things? He has pretty much said Russia can have the Ukraine and he won't lift a finger to help. He has questioned our commitment to NATO and has threatened to pull out. Thats sends a great message to Russia. China? His Sec Of Defence has threatened to kick China off the islands and China has threatened military action if that happens. Bottom line? China is still there, Russia is stil there in Crimera and is starting to get aggresive again now that they have the green light from Trump. Trump will lift the sanctions on Russia? That will make them leave the Ukraine?

Tell me, what should have Obama did differently?

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In2ition
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by In2ition »

Boots on the ground in Syria would be awful.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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LazarusLong
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Re: Flynn resigns

Post by LazarusLong »

Nodack wrote:I think Trump is a good salesman. He told a certain group what they wanted to hear and sold it with a straight face.
That's an insult to salesmen. Trump is a high-priced huckster and carnival barker.
Window is open again ... blue skies ahead?

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