United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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AmareIsGod
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

specialsauce wrote:
Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What exactly did the victim do to deserve being violently removed from the flight and physically injured? Which aspect of his past caused him to earn that treatment?
Reading the statement from the officers that describe him as violently swinging his arms up and down, makes you think. But then reading the statement where the officer says his statement is being given under duress because he will be terminated if he refused to provide it, is telling.
If you were the officer and were told there was a passenger who refused to get off the plane when asked multiple times by staff, and who you personally asked get off but refused, what would you do? I don't see how what they did was inappropriate. They did not hit him. He resisted them attempting to pull him up and in that process he thrashed and got cut. This is not a case of them beating him.

It's the same At any public establishment in which the police or security are involved. If you refuse to leave, you are escorted out by security. If you refuse to leave on your own two feet, you are physically removed.

Whether they ever should have asked him to leave in the first place is up for debate. Once the passengers were already aboard they should have let it rest
He lost 2 teeth, broke his nose and had a concussion. That's a pretty bad cut.
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specialsauce
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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You can't see him that well in the video but you can see the officers and they did not swing at him at any point it looks like they grabbed him and tried to pull him out his seat. That was an unfortunate accident. Again when you resist that is a possible consequence.

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specialsauce
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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The officers job is to get that man off the plane. He wasn't cooperating despite multiple requests by different people. What would you have expected them to do? Not United, the officers. Obviously United should never have tried to boot him off

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Mori Chu
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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specialsauce wrote:The officers job is to get that man off the plane. He wasn't cooperating despite multiple requests by different people. What would you have expected them to do? Not United, the officers. Obviously United should never have tried to boot him off
Why should the police have been involved? Why must the man "cooperate" with "multiple requests" when those requests are invalid? He has no requirement by law to exit the plane; they haven't got the authority to remove him by force. "What would you have expected [the police] to do?" How about nothing? It wasn't a police matter at all.

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Cap
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
specialsauce wrote:The officers job is to get that man off the plane. He wasn't cooperating despite multiple requests by different people. What would you have expected them to do? Not United, the officers. Obviously United should never have tried to boot him off
Why should the police have been involved? Why must the man "cooperate" with "multiple requests" when those requests are invalid? He has no requirement by law to exit the plane; they haven't got the authority to remove him by force. "What would you have expected [the police] to do?" How about nothing? It wasn't a police matter at all.
The plane is private property, so once the owners kick him out and he refuses to leave, it becomes a trespassing matter. It's not for the cops to determine if the property owner is violating a contract, TOS, or law by kicking him out.

At least, that's what some authority said in one of the articles linked in this thread.

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Nodack
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Nodack »

The pilot can walk on the plane and see some passenger that he just doesn't feel right about and he can have that passenger removed from the plane if he chooses. This isn't Starbucks or Circle K, this is an airline flight after 9/11. Federal laws go into effect. This is private property and they can remove any passenger they want at any time for no reasn of they choose.

I only saw the video where they dragged him down the isle. I saw no video of the altercation leading up to that. We just don't know what happened and can only speculate.

I feel bad that the guy got messed up. They shouldn't kick you off a plane after you have boarded but, it happens sometimes. He could have avoided the whole thing by complying. The police get called trump intervene all the time. A lot of times at the gate. A drunk guy walks up and starts insulting the employee trying to help them and get's beligerent to the point where the Police are called to escort them out and of the building. The police are called because incidents like the American flight happen and forcing employees to be policemen lead to bad things. Whether you like the police or not, failing to comply with their orders ALWAYS results in you losing.

I just asked my wife the airline employee of 28 years about it and she said all airlines have an "order of removal". They bump the non rev employees first, then stand by passengers that missed a flight or were changing flights, then they ask for volunteers, then they go to lowest paid ticket like an award ticket and then eventually they get to the last person checked in. She said every airline is different.

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Mori Chu
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Indy »

Cap wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
specialsauce wrote:The officers job is to get that man off the plane. He wasn't cooperating despite multiple requests by different people. What would you have expected them to do? Not United, the officers. Obviously United should never have tried to boot him off
Why should the police have been involved? Why must the man "cooperate" with "multiple requests" when those requests are invalid? He has no requirement by law to exit the plane; they haven't got the authority to remove him by force. "What would you have expected [the police] to do?" How about nothing? It wasn't a police matter at all.
The plane is private property, so once the owners kick him out and he refuses to leave, it becomes a trespassing matter. It's not for the cops to determine if the property owner is violating a contract, TOS, or law by kicking him out.

At least, that's what some authority said in one of the articles linked in this thread.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr- ... 9b0d35a89a

I don't know if this is federal guidelines, or just United, but United says that since there was no safety or security issue, they should not have summoned law enforcement.

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Nodack
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Nodack wrote:The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

[i]Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.[/i]

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?
Did you read the full incident report? The officers giving them said specifically that they were being provided under threat with losing their jobs. I struggle to believe police statements that said the suspect deserved what he got, or caused it on his own, especially when they are follow up by saying "I didn't want to say these things, but was told I would lose my job if I didn't."

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Nodack wrote:The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

[i]Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.[/i]

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?
Did you read the full incident report? The officers giving them said specifically that they were being provided under threat with losing their jobs. I struggle to believe police statements that said the suspect deserved what he got, or caused it on his own, especially when they are follow up by saying "I didn't want to say these things, but was told I would lose my job if I didn't."
Forget about the incident report. You can see in the video for yourself that they were surrounded around him, he wasn't getting up, so they attempted to grab him and he started flailing. You never see them throw a punch. You never see them do anything other than try and grab him and force him out of his seat.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Nodack wrote:The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?
I did not say that. The airline said they should not have called the police.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Indy wrote:
Nodack wrote:The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

[i]Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.[/i]

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?
Did you read the full incident report? The officers giving them said specifically that they were being provided under threat with losing their jobs. I struggle to believe police statements that said the suspect deserved what he got, or caused it on his own, especially when they are follow up by saying "I didn't want to say these things, but was told I would lose my job if I didn't."
Forget about the incident report. You can see in the video for yourself that they were surrounded around him, he wasn't getting up, so they attempted to grab him and he started flailing. You never see them throw a punch. You never see them do anything other than try and grab him and force him out of his seat.
I have seen the videos many times. He wasn't flailing. Again, this is a paying customer, that refused to be singled out and kicked off a flight because an airline screwed up and would rather inconvenience him and not themselves. I am not saying he doesn't deserve some of the blame, but clearly the airline and the officers screwed up.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Superbone »

Nodack wrote:What would you have done differently?
A quick tranquilizer blow dart to the neck?
"Be Legendary."

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
specialsauce wrote:
Indy wrote:
Nodack wrote:The airline was put in a sticky situation. Bump a few people off this plane so another flight and possibly more aren't cancelled stranding hundreds of people. They go through your normal protocols of bumping people. Everybody else complied and were compensated for their troubles and then you get to Dao. He refuses. They try several times. He refuses. Chicago Department of Aviation officers, who the report noted, “historically been effective in getting customers to voluntarily comply” then arrived on the scene. They are unsuccessful. They finally resort to physically removing him from the plane.

[i]Incident reports released by the Chicago Department of Aviation this week said Dao became increasingly combative and began swinging his arms with his fists closed after one of the officers tried to grab him. It says the officer was able to pull Dao up from his seat and toward the aisle, but then lost his grip because Dao kept fighting.[/i]

My assesment is the same. Dao was stubborn and refused all attempts. I didn't see or hear anywhere where they punched him intentionally but him swinging his closed fists at them and them losing their grip on him in the process might have had something to do with him being injured.

You say they shouldn't have called the police? What do you do then? Have the airline employees remove him by force? That sounds like another youtube video scandal waiting to happen. Just wait him out and let the plane sit there at the gate until he decides to comply? So an hour goes by with them sitting at the gate. Everybody is now an hour behind. People with connecting flights are now missng their flights. The crew that needed to get there to work another flight is now an hour or whatever late and flights have been cancelled now. Hundreds of people put out and many thousands of dollars lost because one guy refuses to give up his seat. The ripple efect is real on airlines. Every minute counts.

What would you have done differently?
Did you read the full incident report? The officers giving them said specifically that they were being provided under threat with losing their jobs. I struggle to believe police statements that said the suspect deserved what he got, or caused it on his own, especially when they are follow up by saying "I didn't want to say these things, but was told I would lose my job if I didn't."
Forget about the incident report. You can see in the video for yourself that they were surrounded around him, he wasn't getting up, so they attempted to grab him and he started flailing. You never see them throw a punch. You never see them do anything other than try and grab him and force him out of his seat.
I have seen the videos many times. He wasn't flailing. Again, this is a paying customer, that refused to be singled out and kicked off a flight because an airline screwed up and would rather inconvenience him and not themselves. I am not saying he doesn't deserve some of the blame, but clearly the airline and the officers screwed up.
Agree to disagree. United screwed up by asking him off the plane in the first place when they had mistakenly boarded them already. Once it was decided that he needed to get off the plane, I don't place any blame on the police. Just know when it's time to give up a fight.

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Nodack
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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You say they shouldn't have called the police?

I did not say that. The airline said they should not have called the police.
I was talking about Mori's post I think.
Why should the police have been involved? Why must the man "cooperate" with "multiple requests" when those requests are invalid? He has no requirement by law to exit the plane; they haven't got the authority to remove him by force. "What would you have expected [the police] to do?" How about nothing? It wasn't a police matter at all.
They do have the authority. If the Police shouldn't do the job who should? Airline Bouncers? This web site is private. You can kick anybody you want at any time, no questions asked if you want. You have the authority.

I just watched the video again twice and it's hard to see what goes on. I can see them try to grab the guy. I can hear him make a bunch of noise. I can see the one cop jerk back some, which I decipher as the part where his grip slips and could have been where the guy gets hit in the mouth. I see the cops acting pretty calm and not saying a word. I can't see the guy flailing. Then again I can't even really see the guy so I have no idea what he is doing other than screaming. I don't really get a good look at him until he is being dragged down the isle, which was after the fact.
A quick tranquilizer blow dart to the neck?
That's not so far fetched as you probably mean it to be. Cops do need a way to subdue people without harming them when they refuse to comply. Tazers are supposed to be that but, electrocuting somebody is a little violent still and still a little dangerous. In the old Planet of the Apes movies the apes would throw nets on humans and it would incapacitate them without causing harm. Spider Man spits out a little web and they are stuck. I have no doubt somebody will invent a better way to do that in the not so distant future and they will be rich.

On a side note, I know people don't like the police having to too much power but, having a kill switch in every vehicle that the cops could activate during police chases would save a lot of lives and accidents. I am not afraid of the police being able to turn off my car. I have been involved in zero police car chases in my lifetime. I know that's too big brother for most. It does make sense to me.
Agree to disagree. United screwed up by asking him off the plane in the first place when they had mistakenly boarded them already. Once it was decided that he needed to get off the plane, I don't place any blame on the police. Just know when it's time to give up a fight.
I have seen the videos many times. He wasn't flailing. Again, this is a paying customer, that refused to be singled out and kicked off a flight because an airline screwed up and would rather inconvenience him and not themselves. I am not saying he doesn't deserve some of the blame, but clearly the airline and the officers screwed up.
The airline was reacting to events happening elsewhere. They didn't just screw up and accidentally let people on the plane and then decide to boot them for kicks. They all of the sudden needed a crew where this flight was going asap and went through protocol they go through every day to make that happen by asking for volunteers and on down the line. They were getting a crew elsewhere to assure that the fewest people were inconvenienced elsewhere. Kick a few people of this flight so that hundreds more elsewhere aren't unconvinced when that plane doesn't have a crew and doesn't leave, which means it doesn't get to it's next destination where more people would be inconvenienced when no plane shows up for the next leg. As a wise Vulcan once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Did you read the full incident report? The officers giving them said specifically that they were being provided under threat with losing their jobs. I struggle to believe police statements that said the suspect deserved what he got, or caused it on his own, especially when they are follow up by saying "I didn't want to say these things, but was told I would lose my job if I didn't."
I didn't see that in the linked page anywhere and don't quite understand what you are saying. They provided incident reports under threat of losing their jobs? They said they didn't want to say what they said in the report but, did because they would be fired if they didn't say what they were told to say in the report? You better give me a link on that one because none of that is in the article posted.

I am still right where I started. They all get some blame. For me the police get the least amount. They were just doing what they were told to do. Remove the passenger from a plane who refused to leave on his own. He was asked to leave several different times by several different people. When it get's to the police saying get off now or we will remove you by force you should get the hint.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Indy »

Here you go Nodack.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/25/us/united ... rs-report/
Rodriguez's statement to his watch commander, along with another officer's statement which CNN has seen, was submitted "under duress," according to the report. "I am only giving this statement at this time because I know that I could lose my job if I refuse the direct order given to me," the statement reads.
The four officers named in the report -- Rodriguez, Long, Steve Smith and John T. Moore -- were all placed on leave within 10 days of the incident, documents show.
The Chicago Department of Aviation said at the time that the incident "was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure, and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department," referring to Long.
CNN has attempted to reach representatives for the officers named in the report, but did not receive responses immediately.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Indy »

The airline was reacting to events happening elsewhere. They didn't just screw up and accidentally let people on the plane and then decide to boot them for kicks. They all of the sudden needed a crew where this flight was going asap and went through protocol they go through every day to make that happen by asking for volunteers and on down the line. They were getting a crew elsewhere to assure that the fewest people were inconvenienced elsewhere. Kick a few people of this flight so that hundreds more elsewhere aren't unconvinced when that plane doesn't have a crew and doesn't leave, which means it doesn't get to it's next destination where more people would be inconvenienced when no plane shows up for the next leg. As a wise Vulcan once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Poor planning on your part does not create an emergency on my part, right?

Again, this wasn't an oversold situation. The airline decided at the last minute that it needed space for a crew, and decided to kick of seated, paying customers for it. Their own CEO is now saying they shouldn't have called the Airport Cops and should not have forcibly removed the guy.


Nodack, you are usually the guy sticking up for customers and not defending big business. If this were any other industry (that you don't have a mult-decade connection to), you wouldn't be re-posting dirt about the guy injured, or defending a huge corporation for how it treats its customers.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Nodack »

I don't think I am too biased on this. My wife doesn't work for United. I have no United stock. I have heard a lot about the workings of an airline having a spouse that has worked for one so long but, a lot of that is her complaining about the airline. I just think I was looking at it logically. That's why I blamed them all. The airline has to make hundreds of flights all work in unison every day and that's no easy feat. The police have to deal with whatever call they get.


I don't think they should boot anybody that already boarded and got their seat. That is uncool. Specialsauce said the same thing. The point he and I were making is that it's their airline and they have the right to kick anybody off they want. If they do it in a bad way and treat customers bad it reflects poorly on them and their business might suffer. They are in damage control as we speak.

If I was in Dao's place and the exact same thing happened to me I might be pissed off too. I might even resist their attempts to bribe me off the plane and put up a stink when they tell me I have to leave the plane. I would leave though. And suppose I say I'm not leaving and then they bring the police in to make me leave. I would certainly leave the plane voluntarily at that point I can guarantee you. I know that resisting the police is just foolish. They better compensate me with something though. Maybe I refuse to fly on that airline again. I have volunteered to not go on a flight a few times and have been compensated. Maybe Dao sues them. That's an option too. Refusing to leave when the police are ordering you to leave is not a logical choice. That's why I put the most blame for the outcome on Dao. He could have defused the situation at any time but chose to not comply.

Is what the airline did the right thing? We could debate that some more but, they have the right to boot anybody they want at any time, right or wrong. Booting somebody already boarded is rare, booting somebody booked but not boarded is not rare at all. Most of the flying I do is stand by or "non rev". I am the very last guy that is allowed to board the plane and I never get a ticket until they know for sure there is room. Most of the time they are already boarding before I get called up to get a ticket. If they don't call my name I know that I am not going on that flight. I have seen non revs seated booted off the the plane who were already seated. They know they have no right to complain and don't. Somebody who bought a ticket, boarded the plane and gets booted certainly has the right to complain but, they don't have the right to say no, I won't go if the airline tells them they must go.

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