United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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O_Gardino
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by O_Gardino »

Indy wrote:
O_Gardino wrote:
Indy wrote:
O_Gardino wrote:I honestly don't understand the outrage on this one. If a police officer tells you to do something, you do it or face the consequences. They weren't beating him in the aisle, or kicking him when he was defenseless. They just knocked him out and removed him from the plane.

For those that think this is terrible, what do you think the Police should have done in this situation?
They can certainly arrest him. And may restrain him if he becomes violent. But you are not subject to violent acts by refusing to stand up. Physically striking him or striking is face on the seats isn't protected behavior unless he was a threat to them or people around him.
1. I assume that is what they were doing.

2. I think it overstates what the police did to describe knocking a guy out as "violent acts," and I think it understates the situation to say that all the guys was doing was "refusing to stand up." He was resisting the police, keeping a plane on the ground that should have been in the air, and had placed himself in a position where it was difficult for the police to get to him. So they knocked him out and pulled him out. That seems like a very reasonable course of action to me.
The police are never at liberty to "knock you out" unless you are posing a threat of bodily harm to others/yourself. Delaying a flight isn't a threat to bodily harm (otherwise airlines would be "knocked out" on about a quarter of their flights)
Thanks for addressing my question, Indy.

In that location, I would say that any attempt to resist being moved by police would constitute a danger to those around you. A struggle in the tight confines of an airplane seems to me like a sure bet that someone is going to get hurt. In a small crowded space like that, police can't use their techniques for bodily walking someone out under control. IMO, if he had struggled in the seats or in the isle someone would have ended up with something worse than a headache and a bruise.

Obv, we didn't see what took place before the recording started or hear what was said between the officers and the man. It could be that the man said "hang on, I've just got to get my bag." But I assume that's not what happened. When the officer reached in to drag him out, did the guy go limp and let himself be dragged? We can't see what happened, but it sounded to me like he screamed and thrashed around.

If that is the case, again, what else should the police do? It is their job to protect the rights of the airline and the other citizens on that plane. How should they remove him if he has backed himself into a very tight space and is fighting being removed?
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Cap
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Indy wrote:
Cap wrote:This is certainly bad publicity for United, but as far as I can tell, they didn't actually break any laws. Maybe the laws need to change.

Airlines are allowed to overbook. When it happens, if they don't get enough volunteers to give up their seats, they can bump passengers involuntarily. The compensation they are required to pay bumped passengers is set by statute, and if it's not enough to compensate a passenger for his loss, too damn bad.
The airline didn't break the law, but the people acting to remove the man is another story.

As far as the money, if you are delayed to your final destination by more than 2 hours, they have to offer 4x the cost of the one-way ticket, not to exceed 1350. It was a next day arrival, so it should have been 1350, not 800. And there is a provision in the law for a civil suit, and the DOT even provides a guide to how to navigate the small claims court to sue.
Whether United correctly calculated the statutory compensation isn't the issue here, is it? I assume they did and if they didn't they'll happily pay the correct amount, but that won't make anybody happy, because they don't care that United offered 800 when it should have been 1350. They care that airlines are allowed to do this at all, and that a nonviolent passenger was beaten bloody when he refused to leave a seat to which he reasonably felt entitled and which he could not afford to give up.

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Superbone
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Cap wrote:This is certainly bad publicity for United, but as far as I can tell, they didn't actually break any laws. Maybe the laws need to change.

Airlines are allowed to overbook. When it happens, if they don't get enough volunteers to give up their seats, they can bump passengers involuntarily. The compensation they are required to pay bumped passengers is set by statute, and if it's not enough to compensate a passenger for his loss, too damn bad.
They're supposed to do this BEFORE they get on the plane. They know how many seats they have and they know how many passengers they allow on the plane. They made a major mistake in letting it get that far.
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AmareIsGod
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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The problem here was that the United personnel needing to board the plane to travel (what was a 5 hour drive in distance) approached and informed they needed to make room after the plane was already boarded. Poor planning on United and a last minute ask that passengers give up their seats. This is typically done before you board outside of your gate and announced / asked before boarding. This was a last minute, poorly planned "we need to seat our United staff now!" situation.
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I have a Korean friend who's visiting the US next month. She asked me for advice about finding a good priced flight from San Francisco to Denver and I directed her to Southwest Airlines.

She ended up booking with United a few weeks ago, and I warned her that United is a terrible company. She messaged me yesterday morning scared about this situation. I told her not to worry, but still got in a petty I told you so. :lol:
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Indy
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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AmareIsGod wrote:The problem here was that the United personnel needing to board the plane to travel (what was a 5 hour drive in distance) approached and informed they needed to make room after the plane was already boarded. Poor planning on United and a last minute ask that passengers give up their seats. This is typically done before you board outside of your gate and announced / asked before boarding. This was a last minute, poorly planned "we need to seat our United staff now!" situation.
Yeah it wasn't an over-sold situation. They had seats for all passengers and boarded them. Then they decided to kick off paying customers to put their crew on. Instead of driving or taking another plane (it is a United hub, so they had other planes there). Totally against their own rules. They can deny boarding for over sold situations but they can't kick people off after boarding because they want their employees to take the flight instead. Well, at least that is what I read from a summary of their terms of use.

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Indy
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Cap wrote:
Indy wrote:
Cap wrote:This is certainly bad publicity for United, but as far as I can tell, they didn't actually break any laws. Maybe the laws need to change.

Airlines are allowed to overbook. When it happens, if they don't get enough volunteers to give up their seats, they can bump passengers involuntarily. The compensation they are required to pay bumped passengers is set by statute, and if it's not enough to compensate a passenger for his loss, too damn bad.
The airline didn't break the law, but the people acting to remove the man is another story.

As far as the money, if you are delayed to your final destination by more than 2 hours, they have to offer 4x the cost of the one-way ticket, not to exceed 1350. It was a next day arrival, so it should have been 1350, not 800. And there is a provision in the law for a civil suit, and the DOT even provides a guide to how to navigate the small claims court to sue.
Whether United correctly calculated the statutory compensation isn't the issue here, is it? I assume they did and if they didn't they'll happily pay the correct amount, but that won't make anybody happy, because they don't care that United offered 800 when it should have been 1350. They care that airlines are allowed to do this at all, and that a nonviolent passenger was beaten bloody when he refused to leave a seat to which he reasonably felt entitled and which he could not afford to give up.
I guess I was just saying they might have had volunteers if they offered the 1350.

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Superbone
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Flagrant Fowl wrote:I have a Korean friend who's visiting the US next month. She asked me for advice about finding a good priced flight from San Francisco to Denver and I directed her to Southwest Airlines.

She ended up booking with United a few weeks ago, and I warned her that United is a terrible company. She messaged me yesterday morning scared about this situation. I told her not to worry, but still got in a petty I told you so. :lol:
Just tell her to build up her upper arm strength and she should be fine. She just needs to be in dragged out shape.
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Mori Chu
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Mori Chu »

There are some funny mock "alternative United slogans" floating around on Twitter. Stuff like:

- United: We can do this the easy way, or the hard way.

- United: Unlike you, our prices can't be beat!

- United: We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

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Nodack
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Airlines always oversell because people always miss flights. I hear about this stuff all the time because my wife has worked at an airline for over 20 years. We fly "non rev" fairly often. Non revs don't get on a plane unless there is an empty seat. These guys were employees being moved to a different airport and thats falls under different rules. I can see bumping paid customers for employees if they are needed elsewhere right away. Five hours to get there by car? Their shift would be about over when they showed up and they are five hours from home and did they need them they work flghts before that time? I don't think we have heard all the facts yet. Letting a paid customer on and then kicking him off after he has boarded crosses the line I think though. Even then they asked the customer to exit and he refused. They called the police and the police asked him to exit. He refused. Airlines have the right to kick anybody off a plane they want. If the police are called and ask you to exit, you exit. Somebody said they knocked him out and then dragged him out. I didn't hear that reported before. Is that speculation or fact? Was it right for them to rough him up? I see in the video them trying to pull him out and him resisting. Didn't actually see a cop punch anybody in the face. It could have happened in the scuffle.

My synopsis- The airline screwed up by letting the guy on and then booting him. Not nice. The police screwed up by being seen forcing the guy from his seat. If the police say you are going to exit the plane, you are going to exit the plane. The guy screwed up by resisting the police and the airline's request to exit the plane.

Years ago my wife and I visited Jamaica flying standby (non rev). When we tried to leave we were on a big non rev list and met a girl who was the daughter of an airline employee and she was also flying non rev. She had been trying to leave for almost a week but because she was at the bottom of the seniority list being only a daughter of an employee and not the actual employee. My wife, me and the girl made it on the flight and were seated. Then they came and told her that she had to give up her seat to a paid customer that just showed up last minute. She grabbed her stuff and exited the plane.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

Nodack wrote: Years ago my wife and I visited Jamaica flying standby (non rev). When we tried to leave we were on a big non rev list and met a girl who was the daughter of an airline employee and she was also flying non rev. She had been trying to leave for almost a week but because she was at the bottom of the seniority list being only a daughter of an employee and not the actual employee. My wife, me and the girl made it on the flight and were seated. Then they came and told her that she had to give up her seat to a paid customer that just showed up last minute. She grabbed her stuff and exited the plane.
That's nice and all but the moral of the story is that she should have reserved her flight in advance. Done a little planning. Like the rest of us paying customers have to do when we plan ahead and book travel. This is why myself and others plan ahead and purchase our airfare tickets so that we have peace of mind that once we board the plane, we are going to get to our destination at or around the time we are expecting to arrive. Not shift our entire set of plans around for someone else that now needs something last minute because the airline fucked up. Dude was seated, he paid for his ticket and then was asked to give up his seat. Not at the gate, like most airlines typically do when they ask for people willing to exchange their ticket on an overbooked flight for vouchers (which, by the way, are a joke. I received $400 in vouchers that the airline broke up into 8x$50 vouchers that could only be used one at a time and not combined. Sneaky way to force me to continue to use their airline for all of my future travel if I wanted to cash in on my vouchers). I think anyone that has deal with airlines and vouchers knows how sneaky they are with so many stipulations that they aren't worth the headache.

United and all airlines need to change they way they've been operating. Their margins and profit continue to rise sky high while those of us that have to fly and travel are treated like second class citizens. As if the entire process of traveling and check points and delays aren't enough. Hopefully this is the shakeup that is needed.

When you fly non rev, you know what that entails. If it's a problem, reserve like everybody else for the exact day and time you plan to depart and pay for your ticket. It's simple. Those of us that pay have the expectation of a delivered service. The money has been withdrawn from my account and in the airlines possession. I expect to get what I paid for.
NonRev is a term used by airlines to refer to non-revenue passengers, that is, passengers flying for free. This includes airline employees and their families, as well as buddy pass travelers and so on. Generally NonRevs travel standby and are given seats only after paid passengers are accounted for.
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AmareIsGod
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

AmareIsGod wrote:
Nodack wrote: Years ago my wife and I visited Jamaica flying standby (non rev). When we tried to leave we were on a big non rev list and met a girl who was the daughter of an airline employee and she was also flying non rev. She had been trying to leave for almost a week but because she was at the bottom of the seniority list being only a daughter of an employee and not the actual employee. My wife, me and the girl made it on the flight and were seated. Then they came and told her that she had to give up her seat to a paid customer that just showed up last minute. She grabbed her stuff and exited the plane.
That's nice and all but the moral of the story is that she should have reserved her flight in advance. Done a little planning. Like the rest of us paying customers have to do when we plan ahead and book travel. This is why myself and others plan ahead and purchase our airfare tickets so that we have peace of mind that once we board the plane, we are going to get to our destination at or around the time we are expecting to arrive. Not shift our entire set of plans around for someone else that now needs something last minute because the airline f*** up. Dude was seated, he paid for his ticket and then was asked to give up his seat. Not at the gate, like most airlines typically do when they ask for people willing to exchange their ticket on an overbooked flight for vouchers (which, by the way, are a joke. I received $400 in vouchers that the airline broke up into 8x$50 vouchers that could only be used one at a time and not combined. Sneaky way to force me to continue to use their airline for all of my future travel if I wanted to cash in on my vouchers). I think anyone that has deal with airlines and vouchers knows how sneaky they are with so many stipulations that they aren't worth the headache.

United and all airlines need to change they way they've been operating. Their margins and profit continue to rise sky high while those of us that have to fly and travel are treated like second class citizens. As if the entire process of traveling and check points and delays aren't enough. Hopefully this is the shakeup that is needed.

When you fly non rev, you know what that entails. If it's a problem, reserve like everybody else for the exact day and time you plan to depart and pay for your ticket. It's simple. Those of us that pay have the expectation of a delivered service. The money has been withdrawn from my account and in the airlines possession. I expect to get what I paid for.
NonRev is a term used by airlines to refer to non-revenue passengers, that is, passengers flying for free. This includes airline employees and their families, as well as buddy pass travelers and so on. Generally NonRevs travel standby and are given seats only after paid passengers are accounted for.

Sorry Nodack. My post sounded like I was s*** on you. I wasn't intending to. I'm just disappointed that this happened as someone that travels frequently and have had my fair share of s*** experiences with airlines.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton

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Nodack
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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My point was that those employees weren't non refs going on vacation, they were a flight crew needed for another flight in another town according to my wife.

Him getting seated on the plane and then being asked to exit was real bad. That should never happen.

I still think the guy should have exited the plane when asked. Sue them later. When the police were called he should have complied as well. I would. You never win that battle.

The cops roughed the guy up. That shouldn't happen. Once again my verdict is that the combination of all three actors in the incident contributed to the overall failure.

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AmareIsGod
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

Nodack wrote:My point was that those employees weren't non refs going on vacation, they were a flight crew needed for another flight in another town according to my wife.

Him getting seated on the plane and then being asked to exit was real bad. That should never happen.

I still think the guy should have exited the plane when asked. Sue them later. When the police were called he should have complied as well. I would. You never win that battle.

The cops roughed the guy up. That shouldn't happen. Once again my verdict is that the combination of all three actors in the incident contributed to the overall failure.
+1 to this.
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Cap
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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O_Gardino wrote: If that is the case, again, what else should the police do?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/expe ... s-46768882

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

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Why Airlines Sell More Seats Than They Have:
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Indy
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Indy »

For all of us frequent travelers, you should know that Jet Blue never over-sells flights.

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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

Lesson learned. When they tell you to get up, you get up. Thankfully Mr. Dao appears to have only suffered minor injuries.

http://fusion.net/david-daos-united-ass ... 1794295962
attorney Tom Demetrio said that his client was discharged from the hospital Wednesday night after suffering a “significant” concussion, a “serious” broken nose with injuries to his sinuses, and lost his two front teeth. Demetrio said that the injuries will require reconstructive surgery.
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AmareIsGod
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by AmareIsGod »

http://nextshark.com/dr-david-dao-unite ... -new-clip/
Contrary to Munoz’s statement, Dao appears to be composed in the video. In the beginning, he can be heard asking the offer “Why did you choose me?” but is met with no reply
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Superbone
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Re: United Airlines violently manhandles passenger

Post by Superbone »

Just to flesh out Mori's list:

New United Airlines Slogans: "First Class, Business Class, or No Class?" "Our prices can't be beaten, but our passengers can." "We put the hospital in hospitality." "We beat our passengers, not the competition." "Let us make you an offer you can't refuse." "Board as a doctor, leave as a patient." "Not enough seating? Prepare for a beating." "And you thought legroom was an issue." "Proudly offering Admiral's Club, Captain's Club, and Fight Club." "If our staff needs a seat, we'll drag you out by your feet." "Good news? We're serving free meals again. Bad news? It's a knuckle sandwich." "We treat you like we treat your luggage." "Flight or fight." "You may have patients, but we don't have patience." "Both red-eye and black-eye flights available." "We'll hit a guy with glasses." "Now serving free punch." "On selected flights, now offering Chinese takeout!"
"Be Legendary."

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