NK/US Tensions Heat Up

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Nodack
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NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Nodack »

NK has been trying to get nukes for a long time and it appears they now have the capabilities of threatening the US with intercontinental nukes. Both sides have been upping the rhetoric lately.

"Should the US dare to show even the slightest sign of attempt to remove our supreme leadership, we will strike a merciless blow at the heart of the US with our powerful nuclear hammer, honed and hardened over time," the foreign ministry spokesman added.

President Donald Trump issued an extraordinary ultimatum to North Korea on Tuesday warning Pyongyang not to make any more threats against the United States or they will "face fire and fury like the world has never seen,"

This is NK and Trump so, how much of this is actual threats and how much of this is bluster?

The US military has detected "highly unusual and unprecedented levels" of North Korean submarine activity and evidence of an "ejection test" in the days following Pyongyang's second intercontinental ballistic missile launch this month, a defense official told CNN on Monday.

"We will handle North Korea. We are gonna be able to handle them. It will be handled. We handle everything," Trump said after a reporter asked him about his strategy.

This is a political forum and no doubt when it comes to a topic like this the blame game will ensue. We will blame all the leaders that failed to stop NK's nuclear ambitions before as if they could have done anything about it. They have all tried sanctions and that so far has failed miserably.

Trump has tried to get China to help but, I suspect they have no real interest in helping. They want NK as a buffer from the West. I doubt the want WWII on their doorstep though. Without all out war I see no way in stopping NK from joining the Nuclear club. All out war means the possiblility of WWIII and the end of civilization. Nobody wins. It's no secret I dislike Trump a lot but, this is a lot bigger than Trump.

I don't think NK is going to stop their nuclear program under any circumstance at this point. That also emboldens Iran to do the same. We barely have an agreement hanging by a thread there that Trump wants so badly to rip up. Part of me thinks this is just two loud mouth leaders threatening each other and neither side wants any part of a nuclear war. Another part of me says these are two loud mouth leaders with massive egos and we could all be one insult away from WWIII.

What should be done about this? That's the million dollar question that nobody has a good answer to.

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Indy
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:NK has been trying to get nukes for a long time and it appears they now have the capabilities of threatening the US with intercontinental nukes. Both sides have been upping the rhetoric lately.

"Should the US dare to show even the slightest sign of attempt to remove our supreme leadership, we will strike a merciless blow at the heart of the US with our powerful nuclear hammer, honed and hardened over time," the foreign ministry spokesman added.

President Donald Trump issued an extraordinary ultimatum to North Korea on Tuesday warning Pyongyang not to make any more threats against the United States or they will "face fire and fury like the world has never seen,"

This is NK and Trump so, how much of this is actual threats and how much of this is bluster?

The US military has detected "highly unusual and unprecedented levels" of North Korean submarine activity and evidence of an "ejection test" in the days following Pyongyang's second intercontinental ballistic missile launch this month, a defense official told CNN on Monday.

"We will handle North Korea. We are gonna be able to handle them. It will be handled. We handle everything," Trump said after a reporter asked him about his strategy.

This is a political forum and no doubt when it comes to a topic like this the blame game will ensue. We will blame all the leaders that failed to stop NK's nuclear ambitions before as if they could have done anything about it. They have all tried sanctions and that so far has failed miserably.

Trump has tried to get China to help but, I suspect they have no real interest in helping. They want NK as a buffer from the West. I doubt the want WWII on their doorstep though. Without all out war I see no way in stopping NK from joining the Nuclear club. All out war means the possiblility of WWIII and the end of civilization. Nobody wins. It's no secret I dislike Trump a lot but, this is a lot bigger than Trump.

I don't think NK is going to stop their nuclear program under any circumstance at this point. That also emboldens Iran to do the same. We barely have an agreement hanging by a thread there that Trump wants so badly to rip up. Part of me thinks this is just two loud mouth leaders threatening each other and neither side wants any part of a nuclear war. Another part of me says these are two loud mouth leaders with massive egos and we could all be one insult away from WWIII.

What should be done about this? That's the million dollar question that nobody has a good answer to.
Clearly we need a dance off between Kim and Trump.

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ShelC
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

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Mori Chu
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Mori Chu »

North Korea is such a strange nation. Isolated from the rest of the world so much more than almost any other country. I get the sense that the NK people don't even hate their government or leaders; they are so thoroughly indoctrinated into that system and fed so much propaganda that many of them genuinely believe that their leaders are doing their best to make the nation great and protect them from harmful neighbors and enemy nations.

'dack mentions sanctions. I think you're right that we have been trying to use sanctions to get NK to behave themselves. But it seems not to work as well, partly given the strange independence and isolation of NK. If we sanction, say, Iran, we can pretty heavily cripple their trade and therefore tank their economy. They don't want that and can't abide that, so they agree to slow their weapons programs and allow inspectors in. NK seems to be more autonomous and independent, less worried about sanctions, because they don't have many trade partners anyway.

I don't know what Democrats want to do here vs. what Republicans want. I myself, while I lean more left than right, I tend to want to mostly stay the heck out of other nations' business. Just because some country is doing bad things doesn't mean I want to go bomb or invade them. I don't believe in the USA as the world's police. If the UN decides it's right to bomb NK, sure, we will help out and provide military muscle. But I don't like when we act solo and just go bombing some nation because we decide they have an "evil dude" in charge or are doing mean things. I don't like when we arm rebels or dissidents with guns and bombs. I don't like when we help overthrow governments or leaders. I didn't like how we removed Saddam Hussein. I don't like us being so heavily involved in Israel vs Palestine.

I know all of these issues are very complicated, and I am sympathetic to all sides. But even if NK is being naughty and getting nukes, I really don't like our President saying how we're going to rain hell fire on them for it. That just ignites tensions between our two nations and makes armed conflict more likely. I'd rather a group of nations such as the UN made a group response to NK's actions. Acting as a renegade world power is part of how we have turned terrorist groups like ISIS against us. Let's work with our allies and fight this the right way.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

Acting as a renegade world power is part of how we have turned terrorist groups like ISIS against us.
Pretty much all of how we did that.

And I am not sure sanctions ever work unless they are world-wide sanctions (meaning every country in the world agrees and carries them out). Otherwise there is still plenty of money flowing into the country to keep the people in power well fed, and it just hurts the populace.

As for NK, why are we even involved? Why is it OK for us and Israel and Russia to have nukes, but bad for NK, India, Pakistan, etc? Because "we" can't trust them? Right now I am just as worried that we will do something stupid as I am for NK.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

I just spent nearly three weeks stateside and found the North Korea rhetoric disgusting. I'm frustrated by the number of Americans who think it's acceptable to preemptively attack another nation.

On one hand, I give them some leeway because I just spent a lot of time hearing the media's BS, and the general population simply doesn't know any better. On the other hand, wake the fuck up. The Nightly News and all others like it have been misleading and fear-mongering the American people for as long as I can remember.

I don't know who's at the bottom of all this shit, but this is sounding like 2003 all over again.
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

When you get down to it, how much of a difference is there between Kim and Trump?

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Cap
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Cap »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:I just spent nearly three weeks stateside and found the North Korea rhetoric disgusting. I'm frustrated by the number of Americans who think it's acceptable to preemptively attack another nation.

On one hand, I give them some leeway because I just spent a lot of time hearing the media's BS, and the general population simply doesn't know any better. On the other hand, wake the f*** up. The Nightly News and all others like it have been misleading and fear-mongering the American people for as long as I can remember.

I don't know who's at the bottom of all this s***, but this is sounding like 2003 all over again.
If the President wants a war, he'll get one. In 2003, Bush wanted a war in Iraq, and he made it happen.

I don't know what Trump wants, but if it's war, he'll get it. With or without Congressional support.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Mori Chu »

I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?

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Indy
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?
Just to balance that out, Vietnam, WWII, WWI...

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Cap »

Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?
Just to balance that out, Vietnam, WWII, WWI...
You're reaching pretty far back.

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Indy
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

Cap wrote:
Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?
Just to balance that out, Vietnam, WWII, WWI...
You're reaching pretty far back.
A sample size of 5 is pretty meaningless. I realize saying 20 samples is meaningful is a stretch, but it isn't as much of a stretch as the original argument.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Superbone »

Indy wrote:
Cap wrote:
Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?
Just to balance that out, Vietnam, WWII, WWI...
You're reaching pretty far back.
A sample size of 5 is pretty meaningless. I realize saying 20 samples is meaningful is a stretch, but it isn't as much of a stretch as the original argument.
Our country isn't even 250 years old. That's pretty crazy when you think about it. I'm glad we don't have 20 samples in that stretch.
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Indy
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Indy »

Superbone wrote:
Indy wrote:
Cap wrote:
Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I can't help but notice that every time we have a Republican President, we rush into a war and/or are always on the brink of doing so.

George HW Bush - Iraq
George W Bush - Iraq, Afghanistan
Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Other Presidents conduct military actions - Obama sent troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere - but Democrat Presidents seem to do these things with great reluctance, and do so surgically, getting out ASAP. Obama got us out of Iraq, and he got Bin Laden killed. Obama didn't start a war after problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Benghazi, etc. occurred.

Am I crazy to just want us to mostly let other nations be? To strive for peace rather than threatening other countries?
Just to balance that out, Vietnam, WWII, WWI...
You're reaching pretty far back.
A sample size of 5 is pretty meaningless. I realize saying 20 samples is meaningful is a stretch, but it isn't as much of a stretch as the original argument.
Our country isn't even 250 years old. That's pretty crazy when you think about it. I'm glad we don't have 20 samples in that stretch.
I meant the last 20 presidents, not 20 wars. But if you start including other armed conflicts, it probably isn't far off.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

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Trump - NK? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Russia?

Add Venezuela to that list. He just threatened them with military action today. I think he is having fun with his new toy.

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -moon-says

South Korean President Moon Jae-in said that any military action against Kim Jong Un’s regime requires his nation’s approval, and vowed to prevent war at all costs.
Nothing will happen until KJU hits a US territory or military instillation, or South Korea approves a preemptive strike. Both are very, very unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever at all.

So always remember this the next time you hear some American faux-tough guy gun nut or jackass in the media ramble on about North Korea.
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Nodack
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Nodack »

South Korea isn't in charge of the US military. Maybe they have an agreement with the US that only SK can declare war with NK. I have never heard of that before but, I'm not an expert on that. Technically aren't they still at war? No peace agreement was signed to end the Korean war was it? Isnt this just a cease fire that has sort of lasted 60 something years? If Trump orders a strike on NK who is going to stop him? Trump hasn't shown that he cares much about what other countries think.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-1 ... korean-war
As Bloomberg summarizes, "Moon asserted the right to veto any military action against Kim Jong Un’s regime, saying that decision should be made by “ourselves and not by anyone else.” He vowed to prevent war at any cost - a statement that drew a sharp contrast with President Donald Trump, who has warned of “fire and fury” if North Korea continues to threaten the U.S."


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

Korea was ruled by Imperial Japan from 1910 until the closing days of World War II. In August 1945, the Soviet Union declared war on Imperial Japan, as a result of an agreement with the United States, and liberated Korea north of the 38th parallel. U.S. forces subsequently moved into the south. By 1948, as a product of the Cold War between the Soviet Union and the United States, Korea was split into two regions, with separate governments. Both claimed to be the legitimate government of all of Korea, and neither accepted the border as permanent. The conflict escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces—supported by the Soviet Union and China—moved into the south on 25 June 1950.[41] On 27 June, the United Nations Security Council authorized the formation and dispatch of UN forces to Korea to repel what was recognized as a North Korean invasion.[42] Twenty-one countries of the United Nations eventually contributed to the UN force, with the United States providing 88% of the UN's military personnel.

After the first two months of war, South Korean and U.S. forces rapidly dispatched to Korea were on the point of defeat, forced back to a small area in the south known as the Pusan Perimeter. In September 1950, an amphibious UN counter-offensive was launched at Incheon, and cut off many North Korean troops. Those who escaped envelopment and capture were forced back north. UN forces rapidly approached the Yalu River—the border with China—but in October 1950, mass Chinese forces crossed the Yalu and entered the war.[41] The surprise Chinese intervention triggered a retreat of UN forces which continued until mid-1951.

After these reversals of fortune, which saw Seoul change hands four times, the last two years of fighting became a war of attrition, with the front line close to the 38th parallel. The war in the air, however, was never a stalemate. North Korea was subject to a massive bombing campaign. Jet fighters confronted each other in air-to-air combat for the first time in history, and Soviet pilots covertly flew in defense of their communist allies.

The fighting ended on 27 July 1953, when an armistice was signed. The agreement created the Korean Demilitarized Zone to separate North and South Korea, and allowed the return of prisoners. However, no peace treaty has been signed, and the two Koreas are technically still at war.[43][44]

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Nodack wrote:Technically aren't they still at war?
Technically, yes. But there's been numerous instances of cooperation between the nations since the "end" of the Korean War. The Kaesong Industrial Complex, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region
Nodack wrote:If Trump orders a strike on NK who is going to stop him?
This is my point. We, the citizens of the US, need to be informed about the reality of the situation as to pressure Trump to not do something irrevocably dumb, such as a preemptive strike.
Nodack wrote:Trump hasn't shown that he cares much about what other countries think.
This is true, but the backlash from everyone around the world (besides Japan) would be tremendous. I have no reservations about predicting the rest of the world would side with South Korea and President Moon's superior authority on this issue.

Trump is unhinged, and sometimes generals like to stick out their chests to assert their authority. But they both know that they aren't doing a damn thing unless KJU hits something with one of his weapons or Moon's government gives the go ahead. Neither is going to happen.
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ShelC
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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

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All the talk is just talk. KJU knows if he launches a missile at South Korea, Guam, Japan or the US, it's over for him and NK. China knows it too and then they'll be dealing with millions of refugees they want no part of.

In terms of a "nuclear war" or attack by Trump, it would take weeks to mobilize the proper armed forces to the area and to move US citizens and military personnel out of the area. The article below spells it out, so all the panic over a nuke strike this afternoon or tomorrow or this weekend is more fodder for the news outlets and websites.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/ ... index.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... am/536952/

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Re: NK/US Tensions Heat Up

Post by Mori Chu »

I doubt any actual military conflict will happen. The US knows that if we attack NK, they may attack Seoul, SK, potentially killing tens of millions of people. Kim Jong Un knows that if he makes a first strike such as Guam, we and our allies will pound them into dust. So neither side wants to make a first move.

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