Mueller/Russia investigation

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:17 am

I believe the general story described in that film summary. Trump's businesses were underwater, and foreign investors bailed him out with dirty money. Now he is in their debt and is frightened that his finances will be found out and get him in trouble. It also explains his defense of Russia and unwillingness to criticize them under any circumstances. He's protecting his fortune and the future for his family by not going after them.

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Superbone
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Superbone » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:22 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:17 am
I believe the general story described in that film summary. Trump's businesses were underwater, and foreign investors bailed him out with dirty money. Now he is in their debt and is frightened that his finances will be found out and get him in trouble. It also explains his defense of Russia and unwillingness to criticize them under any circumstances. He's protecting his fortune and the future for his family by not going after them.
It all makes sense based on his behavior.
O_Gardino: "Ntilikina is going to lead the NBA in assists once he gets going[2025]..."

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:52 am

It can be really depressing to talk to a Trump supporter. My mom voted for him and defends him ardently. I call her and ask her about all the crazy news going on, and she just counters that everything on NYT/CNN/WaPo / any other outlet is "fake news."

I ask her about Russia and she says nothing illegal has been found whatsoever (!). She says it's totally fine to work with Russia to sway the election, because it's just like what the Democrats did with their crooked Steele dossier.

I ask her about corruption, emoluments, etc., she says Trump would never do that because he's already rich so he doesn't need any more money. She's proud that he "didn't take any money" during his campaign (?).

I ask her about Mueller, she says he's a Democrat operative, best friends with Comey, biased against Trump, trying to take him down.

I ask her about the anonymous op-ed in NYT, she says (a) fake news, and also (b) it's a traitor who needs to be found and punished, (c) we need to change the laws to punish NYT for publishing articles like that.

And after every defense, she reminds me that Hillary is crooked, that she and her husband had a dirty Foundation and talked to somebody on a tarmac, that Hillary used an email server, that she was rotten to the core, just like all the Democrats. So it's really good that Trump was elected to stop a crook like Hillary from being President.

It's all very tiring. I mostly just don't talk politics with my mom. She watches Fox News nonstop and has really bought in to their narrative of events. There are so many inaccuracies in all of it, and when I try to inform her of these, she claims almost any other media or information of any kind is "fake." Such a dangerous mindset.

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Nodack
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Nodack » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:13 am

I had an hour long conversation with my mother the other day, who is a Trump supporter as well. My mother isn’t as savy as your mother. She doesn’t know details very well at all. By the end I had her at least sort of qustioning a few things. I told her she watches too much FOX News and that she should at least watch some other news sometimes to balance it out. She asked which one and I told any other news but FOX would suffice since pretty much all the rest of the media says the same thing.

She is convinced the Muslims, Blacks and Mexicans are here to take over America. She is convinced the Muslms are coming to force us away from Christianity and make us all Muslims. She feels SO sorry for Trump because everybody is picking on him. She is afraid just like they want her to be.

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Superbone
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Superbone » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:45 am

Wow, those are the really scary stories about America guys. Apparently 45% of Americans think like that and are brainwashed by Fox news.
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:26 pm

I could go on and on. My wife's parents are way, way more enthusiastic about Trump and the GOP than even my own mom. My mother-in-law is retired and reads The Daily Caller and Gateway Pundit on her iPad all day. She is always talking about of these elaborate obscure theories and conspiracies. I worry that she'll start with that QAnon stuff soon, though to be fair she hasn't mentioned that yet. I wisely choose not to argue politics with my in-laws; nothing good comes of that.

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:30 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:26 pm
I could go on and on. My wife's parents are way, way more enthusiastic about Trump and the GOP than even my own mom. My mother-in-law is retired and reads The Daily Caller and Gateway Pundit on her iPad all day. She is always talking about of these elaborate obscure theories and conspiracies. I worry that she'll start with that QAnon stuff soon, though to be fair she hasn't mentioned that yet. I wisely choose not to argue politics with my in-laws; nothing good comes of that.
Good for you Marty, that you are at least talking to your mother and in-laws over this. At least you aren't bunkered into your own echo chamber.
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:18 am

Breaking news today: Paul Manafort seems to be pleading guilty in his case and seeking a plea deal. Unclear if this means he is cooperating fully with Mueller or not, but this definitely adds even more evidence that this investigation is no "witch hunt."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... be-n909576

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Nodack
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Nodack » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:20 pm

He is cooperating fully.

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Superbone
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Superbone » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:49 pm

Do a little dance. Get down tonight!
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:10 pm

You have to figure that Mueller's eventual report is going to suggest removal of Trump from office, no? Like, officially recommending impeachment, 25th Amendment, prosecution, that sort of stuff?

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Cap
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Cap » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:10 pm
You have to figure that Mueller's eventual report is going to suggest removal of Trump from office, no? Like, officially recommending impeachment, 25th Amendment, prosecution, that sort of stuff?
I’m pretty sure it’s not his place to say whether or not Congress ought to impeach. That’s a political question.

The 25th would be inappropriate under the circumstances, and an unbelievable mess. And way out of Mueller’s purview. He’s investigating alleged crimes, not evaluating fitness for office.

Prosecution can’t happen while he’s in office, and he can simply issue himself a pardon on his last day before leaving office, so that’s not going anywhere. I suppose Mueller can make a recommendation, but it won’t mean anything.
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Nodack
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Nodack » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Mueller will issue a report on his findings when he is done and press charges if there are any to those other than Trump. If the findings say Trump broke laws then it will be up to Congress as to whether they decide to go ahead with impeachment hearings. Trump said he might block that report from seeing the night of day. I don’t think that will help him and I think the deep state people around him will stop him from attempting that.

Right now Republicans are in control and the odds of impeachment happening are next to zero. If the midterms swing the Dems way enough they might gain enough seats to press forward with impeachment hearings if Muellers findings indicate something like Trump laundering money for the Russian mob for decades or him knowingly working with the Russian government to sway our elections.

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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:13 am

There is no way in hell that 2/3rds of the senate will vote to remove Trump from office, period. Many of the GOP senators that would be voting on that are not due up for re-election until after the next presidential election, and they will simply say the people of the right to vote Trump out of office if they want to.

It is more plausible to think that the House will invoke articles of impeachment, if they win the majority in two months.

I can't see the 25th being used, because the cabinet has to vote on it.

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ShelC
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by ShelC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:49 am

Given what I've read about Mueller, I don't think he leaves any stone unturned and sees it all the way thru, even making recommendations based on constitutional law, and then backing those up. I don't think he'll just list what he's found and then say, "You guys figure it out and deal with it". He'll report his findings, state if/how anything illegal has taken place, what laws were broken and how those crimes are punishable/impeachable given the law and precedents that have been set.

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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:14 am

There are no details around what is impeachable offenses are what are not (treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors). And he is a member of the Justice department which has a stated opinion that the sitting president cannot be indicted. He has not wavered from that. I agree with the first half of your last sentence, though. He will report, in great detail, what he has found that indicates/proves which crimes were committed.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:51 pm

If the Dems take the House, they can initiate impeachment hearing proceedings against Trump. It's true that he would ultimately be voted on by the Senate, who would need to have a 2/3 vote to remove him from office, which is unlikely to happen (and has never happened in US history). But don't underestimate how atom-bomb damaging the hearings themselves could be, even if they didn't lead to a 2/3 vote

An impeachment hearing would be ugly and public and would very visibly reveal/discuss much criminal wrongdoing on the part of the President. It might lead him to resign from office as his many crimes came out in court and as the President himself would otherwise be forced to testify under oath about these crimes. He would be at risk of committing perjury and lying under oach. Even if he refused to resign and stuck it out all the way to a vote in the Senate, every GOP senator who voted to keep him in office would be on record as voting "for" him and his crimes even after they had all been laid bare before the American people. There would be a lot of pressure for the entire GOP to turn on him and vote him out, since it would be so blatant that he had committed multiple felonies including conspiracy and fraud against the United States. There would be no way to scream about "fake news" on this one; a vote to keep him in power would possibly be seen as aiding and abetting a known enemy of the republic.

Because of all of this, I think if the Dems win the House, it's the end of his Presidency. I think it leads to an impeachment hearing and ultimately a resignation. I don't think Trump will let himself take a witness stand and expose himself to perjury.

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ShelC
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by ShelC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:08 pm

I don't see any of that happening. Trump's never given in, never resigned, stepped down or admitted fault and certainly wouldn't start now. He'd stall, delay, refuse, pardon himself, or come up with some legal justification as to why he can't be impeached and/or can't be part of any hearings. And the GOP would back up him. It'll be fake news, deep state, witch hunt all the way. Fox News would be riling up his base to no end. He'd sue or counter sue or find some way to impeach Schumer, Pelosi, Feinstein, who whomever. Nothing actually matters with regards to laws, rules or facts when it comes to Trump.

And to be honest, I don't think the Dems have the balls or the brains to even get him out of office should they win the midterms.

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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 am

There is no incentive for the senate to speed up the process of an impeachment hearing and push for a vote, as long as they are running the upper house. And by all indications they will still be running it come 2019. And at the speed of government, there is no way we would get to a vote of the Senate early enough for their to be an impact before the 2020 election. Hell, I don't believe there is anything preventing a person that was removed from office in the past from running again. How many people that voted for Trump would vote for him again even if he was removed from office? He would spin it as the "corrupt Washington insiders" lying to the american people to throw him out of office because they hate america and want to keep his people down. You can basically write his speech in your head in like 5 minutes, and know that there will be ~60,000,000 voters that would believe it. Then he only has to convince a few more idiots he is right.

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Nodack
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Nodack » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:18 am

I have to believe that if Trump is guilty of being a puppet for Putin, worked with Russia to win the election, is the official money launderer for the Russian mob and Meuller puts all the pieces together for all to see that justice will be done. Trump will claim all that deep state fake crap like always but, will the rest of the Republicans go down that road? I can’t believe the so called law and order party will follow Trump down the slippery path of claiming our entire justice system is corrupt. That would be a dangerous path for our democracy and plays right into Putins hand. Putin would be cracking the champagne if he hasn’t already done so.

My faith in the FBI is much higher than my faith in either political party to do the right thing. If Trump is able to get away with throwing our entire system under the bus with GOP blessings that would be the end to our democracy imo.

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