Mueller/Russia investigation

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Wed May 29, 2019 9:45 am

Mueller made a public statement today about his investigation and findings. He's all but saying that Congress must launch an impeachment investigation.

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/29/18644249/ ... bstruction

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 am

Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.

I think it's also important to make sure all other parties are investigated thoroughly about how this started, including those who paid for and created the Steele Dossier and the coverup of information to the wiretaps and FISA warrants. Don't you think?
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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Wed May 29, 2019 11:41 am

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 am
Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.

I think it's also important to make sure all other parties are investigated thoroughly about how this started, including those who paid for and created the Steele Dossier and the coverup of information to the wiretaps and FISA warrants. Don't you think?
Do you think Mueller is a Democratic Party operative?

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Wed May 29, 2019 12:06 pm

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 am
I think it's also important to make sure all other parties are investigated thoroughly about how this started, including those who paid for and created the Steele Dossier and the coverup of information to the wiretaps and FISA warrants. Don't you think?
No. Firstly, the origins and sources for the Steele dossier are already known and not in dispute; there is no need to "investigate" them. Second and more importantly, the Steele dossier is not the reason for the Mueller investigation; it is unrelated and unimportant to the investigation. Attempts to connect the two are misleading and intellectually dishonest. The Mueller report itself discusses the origins of the investigations.

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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Wed May 29, 2019 12:15 pm

Yeah, the Steele Dossier is what Trump keeps focusing on (with Fox News and the like), but that might be more telling about what Trump did and didn't do as it relates to the stories in the dossier. But the counter-intelligence investigation began because a member of Trump's election team was bragging to foreign diplomats about his russian connections.

Besides that, remember that the GOP started the Steele dossier and funded it until it was clear that Trump was going to be the nominee, then it switched to the Dems. Both sides funded it.

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Wed May 29, 2019 12:27 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:41 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 am
Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.

I think it's also important to make sure all other parties are investigated thoroughly about how this started, including those who paid for and created the Steele Dossier and the coverup of information to the wiretaps and FISA warrants. Don't you think?
Do you think Mueller is a Democratic Party operative?
I never said that.
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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Wed May 29, 2019 12:34 pm

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:27 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:41 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 am
Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.

I think it's also important to make sure all other parties are investigated thoroughly about how this started, including those who paid for and created the Steele Dossier and the coverup of information to the wiretaps and FISA warrants. Don't you think?
Do you think Mueller is a Democratic Party operative?
I never said that.
I wasn't saying you did. I was trying to understand if you believed what he said or not. Considering his long track record of being trusted by both parties over the last 20 years, and even having the current admin say he was a good choice to lead the investigation, I was trying to find reasons people suddenly don't believe him when he says that if there was evidence of innocence, he would have communicated it.

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ShelC
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by ShelC » Wed May 29, 2019 2:38 pm

Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.
Do you think it would've been the same had Pence or Jeb Bush been nominated and won (fairly) - with no campaign/real estate/business links to Russia or any talk of Russian interference? I for one don't think it would've been the same at all. There'd be opposition to their policies but I doubt there'd be this many investigations leading to indictments of business associates and campaign officials. Trump's been dirty for decades (this much was known) and a lot of it flows thru Russia. The Russians were communicating with his campaign and vice versa. If you don't think that should've been investigated by our national security officials, I'm not sure what to tell you.

And still, there's something much bigger here - The fact that we know the Russians interfered with our elections and yet haven't done: 1) anything to Russia in terms of sanctions or military action; 2) anything to address the integrity of future elections and secure our voting mechanisms while fighting against fake news/fake social media accounts. This is especially concerning. Mueller said it needs to be taken seriously by every American but it doesn't seem like it is; at least not to our politicians.

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Wed May 29, 2019 4:39 pm

ShelC wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:38 pm
Trump may deserve to be impeached, but the fevor that they said this before he was even put in office makes me extremely skeptical of the Dems, whom I don't believe to be above board either.
Do you think it would've been the same had Pence or Jeb Bush been nominated and won (fairly) - with no campaign/real estate/business links to Russia or any talk of Russian interference? I for one don't think it would've been the same at all. There'd be opposition to their policies but I doubt there'd be this many investigations leading to indictments of business associates and campaign officials. Trump's been dirty for decades (this much was known) and a lot of it flows thru Russia. The Russians were communicating with his campaign and vice versa. If you don't think that should've been investigated by our national security officials, I'm not sure what to tell you.

And still, there's something much bigger here - The fact that we know the Russians interfered with our elections and yet haven't done: 1) anything to Russia in terms of sanctions or military action; 2) anything to address the integrity of future elections and secure our voting mechanisms while fighting against fake news/fake social media accounts. This is especially concerning. Mueller said it needs to be taken seriously by every American but it doesn't seem like it is; at least not to our politicians.
No, I don't think it would have been treated the same way.
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Thu May 30, 2019 12:35 am

It's really simple. To Donald Trump, Donald Trump is #1 above everyone and everything else. That includes you, me, every citizen in the country and every ideological tenant of our democracy. That's it.

Anyone with that mindset is not fit for public office, let alone the highest position.
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Nodack » Thu May 30, 2019 9:11 am

If Trump isn’t a Russian Puppet then why does he keep auditioning for the part?

Trump was negotiating a new Trump Tower in Moscow during the election. Every person on Trumps election team was pro Russian and had deep ties to Russia. 13 different US Intelligence Community agencies all concluded Russia meddled in our election. Putin told Trump they didn’t. Trump believed Putin and not his own country. Congress voted unanimously to sanction Russia over their meddling. Trump refused. Trumps team gave Russia their voters info. Trumps team met with Russian officials with the intent of getting dirt about Hillary at Trump Towers. Trump asked Russia to hack Hillary’s emails and five hours later they did. After Trumps 5th bankruptcy no US bank would loan him a dime so Trump went to Russia and they have been financing all of Trumps golf courses. The Russian mob/Putin have been laundering money through Trump Towers since the 80’s. Popolopolous bragging. The Steele dossier.

There are so many different suspicious things Trump has going on with Russia. The GOP wants to investigate the investigators. They don’t feel there was anything Trump did that was suspicious and think the entire investigation was a political hoax by Obama, Hillary, Democrats, FBI, DOJ, Liberal judges and the fake media all In cahoots with each other in a coup attempt.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:09 am

Trump admin instructs Hope Hicks and Annie Donaldson not to comply with congressional subpoenas (which is illegal, but, I guess everything is fine in this administration). They will likely be held in contempt if they do not comply.

https://www.axios.com/white-house-hope- ... bb15f.html

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ShelC
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by ShelC » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:12 am

Dems won't do anything. Nothing matters, nothing means anything.

There's no accountability because there's no threat of action (ie, arrest).

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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:03 am

Exactly. The Dems will not play by the same rules the other team will play by. So they lose. The question is whether you are willing to lose by playing the right way, instead of playing the same way the other team is and win. If someone brings a gun to a knife fight, how long do you argue that it isn't fair before you get a gun...

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am

If they committed a crime they should be charged. I don't think it's that difficult. But, are they worried about them not found guilty or is it that they are worried that Trump is going to pardon them? Or maybe it's that it's politics as usual and it will be perceived being politically motivated and opens up a can of worms for repercussions, that once the precedent is given. Maybe precedent is already been created. I think it's a little dangerous to feel like one side or the other has the moral high ground OR that the Dems are the innocent parties in all everything. Get all the crap out of office, no matter what party they belong to.
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Superbone » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:06 pm

In2ition wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am
Get all the crap out of office, no matter what party they belong to.
Yes!
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:40 pm

In2ition wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am
If they committed a crime they should be charged. I don't think it's that difficult. But, are they worried about them not found guilty or is it that they are worried that Trump is going to pardon them? Or maybe it's that it's politics as usual and it will be perceived being politically motivated and opens up a can of worms for repercussions, that once the precedent is given. Maybe precedent is already been created. I think it's a little dangerous to feel like one side or the other has the moral high ground OR that the Dems are the innocent parties in all everything. Get all the crap out of office, no matter what party they belong to.
Yes, fine, but when a Congressional committee subpoenas you or calls you to testify before them, the law mandates that you must do so. It isn't a partisan statement to say that you are required to comply with this request, and that not doing so is against the law. It is also against the law for another person, including the President, to tell you not to comply with the law. It is not a "Democrat" thing to say so. It is uniformly and non-partisanally against the law.

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:00 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:40 pm
In2ition wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am
If they committed a crime they should be charged. I don't think it's that difficult. But, are they worried about them not found guilty or is it that they are worried that Trump is going to pardon them? Or maybe it's that it's politics as usual and it will be perceived being politically motivated and opens up a can of worms for repercussions, that once the precedent is given. Maybe precedent is already been created. I think it's a little dangerous to feel like one side or the other has the moral high ground OR that the Dems are the innocent parties in all everything. Get all the crap out of office, no matter what party they belong to.
Yes, fine, but when a Congressional committee subpoenas you or calls you to testify before them, the law mandates that you must do so. It isn't a partisan statement to say that you are required to comply with this request, and that not doing so is against the law. It is also against the law for another person, including the President, to tell you not to comply with the law. It is not a "Democrat" thing to say so. It is uniformly and non-partisanally against the law.
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Indy
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by Indy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:14 pm

I am sure you would have felt the exact same way In2 if Hillary would have said, "No, I will not respond to your 32 subpoenas for Bengazi or a private email server or meeting with the AG on the tarmac, I don't care if it is against the law."

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In2ition
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Re: Mueller/Russia investigation

Post by In2ition » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:35 pm

I'm sure I would, and I'm not even arguing that. I'm arguing the virtue signaling of each party. "Oh Gasp, my party is pure and virtuous and would never do that." I don't think that ever helps. It paints you in the corner and when your hypocrisy is exposed it makes your party look worse. Maybe all of you individually are all good people, I have no reason to think you aren't, but that doesn't mean everyone in your party is, no matter what party you belong to. I don't think any party has a moral high ground.
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