Florida school shooting

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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:52 am

Cap wrote:
Nodack wrote:This is kind of a big thing. That sound bite by Trump will be used a lot in the future. It sounded like Trump was saying that if there is any kind of doubt about a persons mental health that they should take his guns first and sort out due process later. If true then I can say that after a year of hating Trumps every decision that I finally agree with him on something.
So how is that supposed to work? If law enforcement gets a credible tip that you're planning a shooting, or wacko, or whatever, they just show up at your house, force their way in, confiscate all the weapons they find, and worry about warrants and stuff later?
If you have a credible tip that you are planning a shooting, they have enough for a warrant. And if "being wacko while having firearms" is considered probably cause to think you may harm someone, they wouldn't need a warrant to conduct a search. It all comes down to the judges and how they treat this once a person that has this happen to them challenges it in court.

But I doubt it gets that far. If you are a gun nut and do something stupid where people are "coming to take your guns" you will likely not sit back and let it happen. Then you get to bone's comment.

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In2ition
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by In2ition » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:50 am

Am I reading this correctly? Do most people on here believe that this is a gun problem? That the NRA caused this tragedy to happen? Which mass shooter was a NRA member? Is there a correlation between NRA members or number of members per gun violence? Maybe there is a correlation of gun violence per higher numbers of guns per capita, or looser gun laws. I'm trying to understand how guns are the problem and elimination of them is the clear solution. I'm not opposed to changing the laws such as raising the age limits and such, but more want to understand this mentality. I think there are other solutions(and solution may be the wrong term) to this that should also be addressed.
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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:06 am

In2ition wrote:Am I reading this correctly?
I don't want to speak for everyone, but I will do my best to answer based on what people have posted here.
In2ition wrote:Do most people on here believe that this is a gun problem?
Yes, most people believe that mass shootings using firearms with high-capacity magazines are problems tied to a high availability and easy access to firearms with high-capacity magazines.
In2ition wrote:That the NRA caused this tragedy to happen?
They are a lobbying organization that regularly pays members of congress to make laws increasing the availability of, and limiting the restrictions on, access to these weapons.
In2ition wrote:Which mass shooter was a NRA member?
I don't know. I don't think being an NRA member makes you more likely to be a homicidal maniac.
In2ition wrote:Is there a correlation between NRA members or number of members per gun violence?
I don't think so. And I don't think anyone said that.
In2ition wrote:Maybe there is a correlation of gun violence per higher numbers of guns per capita, or looser gun laws.
I think you can clearly say that the more accessible high-rate of fire/high-capacity maagazines are, the higher the rate of their use in homicides/attempted homicides.
In2ition wrote:I'm trying to understand how guns are the problem and elimination of them is the clear solution.
Firearms are designed to kill living things. Many of them are specifically designed to kill people.
In2ition wrote:I'm not opposed to changing the laws such as raising the age limits and such, but more want to understand this mentality.
I have said that I am not sure raising the age of purchasing a firearm does much to prevent this from happening.
In2ition wrote:I think there are other solutions(and solution may be the wrong term) to this that should also be addressed.
I don't think there is a single solution.

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ShelC
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by ShelC » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:46 am

I don't think there is a single solution.
The best example being used is Australia. They had a mass shooting in 1996, banned assault weapons outright and haven't had an incident since. I think mental health plays a huge part, but a mentally ill person with a handgun does significantly less damage than someone with an AR-15 that fires out 600 bullets per minute.

And again, what's the need for an AR-15? Hunting? Self-defense? I don't think those are legitimate reasons. You can kill an animal and protect yourself with something less than a military grade assault rifle.

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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:01 am

ShelC wrote:
I don't think there is a single solution.
The best example being used is Australia. They had a mass shooting in 1996, banned assault weapons outright and haven't had an incident since. I think mental health plays a huge part, but a mentally ill person with a handgun does significantly less damage than someone with an AR-15 that fires out 600 bullets per minute.

And again, what's the need for an AR-15? Hunting? Self-defense? I don't think those are legitimate reasons. You can kill an animal and protect yourself with something less than a military grade assault rifle.
Oh, I agree that if there were a ban future sales on firearms that can deliver rounds at a high rate of fire, that would drastically reduce mass shootings involving these weapons. And I am all for that. But it won't fix the culture issues too. That is all I was saying.

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ShelC
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by ShelC » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:36 am

Yea America does have a strong gun culture. That's not going away.

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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:42 am

ShelC wrote:Yea America does have a strong gun culture. That's not going away.
I was thinking more about the coddled culture that leads many of us to not being capable of handling adversity/rejection, and lashing out in homicidal ways. I know it isn't only a US culture issue, but it does seem to be much more common here.

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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:09 pm

Indy wrote:
ShelC wrote:Yea America does have a strong gun culture. That's not going away.
I was thinking more about the coddled culture that leads many of us to not being capable of handling adversity/rejection, and lashing out in homicidal ways. I know it isn't only a US culture issue, but it does seem to be much more common here.
I live in a country with essentially zero guns. Some people own a hunting rifle, but they are very few and far between. As you can imagine, there aren't any mass shootings or really any shootings at all for that matter.

The statistics make it clear that people chose to commit suicide at an alarming rate here, but those people are also usually not taking the lives of others on their way out. Mental health will always be an issue, but there are clearly elements of American gun laws that enables ill people to attack others if they wish to do so. I think that's insane.

Why should we stand up for a right that essentially puts us in critical danger at any moment?
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Cap
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Cap » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:16 pm

Nodack wrote:I visited my brother not long ago. He’s a right wing Republican gun nut. He’s constantly talking about those evil RINO’s. He has a gun safe filled with every gun imaginable. He makes his own bullets. He got a new assault rifle for Christmas and wanted to show it off. I said man, you have a lot of guns. He said it’s only half of them. The other half are hidden around the house in various places loaded, just in case. I’m guessing 40-50 guns.
I’m curious, does your brother who finds it necessary to have loaded guns stashed around the house “just in case” also resent the health insurance mandate? It seems there’s a lot of overlap there.
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Nodack
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Nodack » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:57 pm

Cap wrote:
Nodack wrote:This is kind of a big thing. That sound bite by Trump will be used a lot in the future. It sounded like Trump was saying that if there is any kind of doubt about a persons mental health that they should take his guns first and sort out due process later. If true then I can say that after a year of hating Trumps every decision that I finally agree with him on something.
So how is that supposed to work? If law enforcement gets a credible tip that you're planning a shooting, or wacko, or whatever, they just show up at your house, force their way in, confiscate all the weapons they find, and worry about warrants and stuff later?
Law enforcement gets a credible tip that you are planning a shooting and they call the judge and get a search warrant. They knock on your door, hand you the warrant and take your guns. If they look at the evidence and find he has a problem they don’t allow him to have guns. If he can prove he was set up somehow and is sane and innocent, then give him his guns back.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:18 am

I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread. These assault weapons are not needed for self-defense or hunting. I feel strongly that they should be banned. Yes, banning them will not erase 100% of them from the earth, and some criminals will still get their hands on them. But it will still help. If you couldn't buy an AR-15 at Wal-mart or Dick's Sporting Goods, there would be fewer people buying them and using them to kill people.

People who want to preserve existing gun laws point to other factors like mental health and fragile masculinity. Fine; we can work on those, too. If you want mental health to be better, you should want universal health care, or at least stop bashing ObamaCare and other efforts to literally help provide mental and physical health care to people who need it. But not every killer shows clear signs of mental health problems prior to a shooting. Let's also make it harder to get these assault weapons that pump out bullets at such a high rate.

People who want to preserve existing gun laws talk about how we need the 2nd Amendment in case we need to overthrow a tyrannical government. Yeah, right. Good luck with that. The government has such weaponry that your little AR-15 will barely make a dent. That ship has sailed long ago. You would need tanks, bombs, military drones, and more to even have a snowball's chance in hell of challenging the government. This line of reasoning to protect gun laws doesn't sway me at all.

People say, you take away the automatic guns, they'll just use knives and other weapons. Fine; that's much better. Let's absolutely downgrade this into a knife problem. Sign me up.

What we've been doing isn't working. Almost every developed nation that has tightened its gun laws has seen huge drops in violent killings. We need universal nation-wide background checks with a shared database. Longer waiting periods. Raise minimum age. Outright ban some of the most dangerous types of guns. Ban on gun ownership for people with known mental health, domestic violence, or violent felonies. Require gun safety and marksmanship training along with regular (yearly?) inspection on each owner's guns. Require tracking of each weapon from manufacture to first sale to each subsequent sale.

Let's fix this.

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Nodack
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Nodack » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:51 pm

I can’t argue with any of that reasoning. I don’t think you will convince guys with a whole arsenal of guns to give up their assault rifles just because the government has bigger guns. That’s like telling a second round pick to not bother guarding Lebron James because he has you outmatched.

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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:23 pm

Nodack wrote:I can’t argue with any of that reasoning. I don’t think you will convince guys with a whole arsenal of guns to give up their assault rifles just because the government has bigger guns. That’s like telling a second round pick to not bother guarding Lebron James because he has you outmatched.
But honestly, you don't have to take any guns away (unless they commit a violent crime, etc.). You just stop the sale of them moving forward. The AK/AR variants are some of the most popular firearm purchases, and are CHEAP. You can get a decent one for less than an iphone. Pretty soon the values of the ones in private collection in the US go up in value, and start getting priced out of the cheap, impulse buyers. You even offer tax breaks to "sell" them back to the government.

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ShelC
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by ShelC » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:32 pm

Maybe we need some bullet control?

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:21 pm

https://twitter.com/NRA/status/973944596563746816

Terrorists.
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Indy
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Indy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:36 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote:

https://twitter.com/NRA/status/973944596563746816

Terrorists.
If you took their times up or their first video after the Parkland shooting and re-cast it with a darker skinned person, half this country would be screaming they were terrorists and wanting to start a war. It is crazy.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:18 pm

This is a sad and scary time for our country. I seriously wonder about whether any Canadian universities are hiring.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:13 pm

Stop what you're doing and watch this clip right now. It's from Sacha Baron Cohen's new Showtime TV show, "Who Is America."

https://twitter.com/twpolk/status/1018372408074522624


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ShelC
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by ShelC » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:56 am

It's disgusting. But it won't change anything. They'll fall back on how they were duped by Cohen, they'll attack him, make excuses (I think John Walsh said he read the teleprompter wrong?). Nothing will change.

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Nodack
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Re: Florida school shooting

Post by Nodack » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:46 am

We swung R with Bush.

We swung L with Clinton.

We swung R with Bush Jr.

We swung L with Obama.

We swung stupid R with Trump.

We will swing L again after Trump.

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