Midterm Elections

Political discussion here. Any reasonable opinion is welcome, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic area, please be nice and respectful to others. No flaming or trolling, please. And please keep political commentary out of the other board areas and confine it to this area. Thanks!
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In2ition
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by In2ition » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am

Nodack wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm
Not really an election thing but is a political topic. I am not a fan of the Republican school voucher thing. I think it saves rich people a little money and screws the poor. They already totally abuse the program.


This came out today.
Parents spent $700K in school voucher money on beauty supplies, apparel; attempted cash withdrawals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcent ... 1780495002
Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
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Indy
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Indy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 am

In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am
Nodack wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm
Not really an election thing but is a political topic. I am not a fan of the Republican school voucher thing. I think it saves rich people a little money and screws the poor. They already totally abuse the program.


This came out today.
Parents spent $700K in school voucher money on beauty supplies, apparel; attempted cash withdrawals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcent ... 1780495002
Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
It pulls money out of local schools, which is already weirdly funded in many places (especially AZ).

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In2ition
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by In2ition » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:52 am

Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am
Nodack wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm
Not really an election thing but is a political topic. I am not a fan of the Republican school voucher thing. I think it saves rich people a little money and screws the poor. They already totally abuse the program.


This came out today.
Parents spent $700K in school voucher money on beauty supplies, apparel; attempted cash withdrawals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcent ... 1780495002
Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
It pulls money out of local schools, which is already weirdly funded in many places (especially AZ).
It pulls out money, only because they have less kids. The money is based on a lot of things, but attendance or population is the main thing. If they decided to go to a different public school, it would take the money away from that local public school too.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"

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In2ition
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by In2ition » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:55 am

I don't use vouchers for my kids, but they don't attend their local public school. When we went to check it out, they bragged on how much money they get because they had a large amount of ESL kids and that gave them a big boost in money. I wasn't convinced that the money made them a better school for my kids.
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Indy
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Indy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:56 am

In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:52 am
Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am
Nodack wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm
Not really an election thing but is a political topic. I am not a fan of the Republican school voucher thing. I think it saves rich people a little money and screws the poor. They already totally abuse the program.


This came out today.
Parents spent $700K in school voucher money on beauty supplies, apparel; attempted cash withdrawals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcent ... 1780495002
Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
It pulls money out of local schools, which is already weirdly funded in many places (especially AZ).
It pulls out money, only because they have less kids. The money is based on a lot of things, but attendance or population is the main thing. If they decided to go to a different public school, it would take the money away from that local public school too.
Kind of. When you fund schools like AZ based on property taxes from the school district, richer homes fund schools better, and poorer homes less, per student. So when you already have a lower funded school, then pull kids out to go somewhere outside of their district, you have even less. Because the cost of a school is linear based on population. There is a baseline cost you need just to open the doors.

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In2ition
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by In2ition » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:59 am

Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:56 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:52 am
Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am
Nodack wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm
Not really an election thing but is a political topic. I am not a fan of the Republican school voucher thing. I think it saves rich people a little money and screws the poor. They already totally abuse the program.


This came out today.
Parents spent $700K in school voucher money on beauty supplies, apparel; attempted cash withdrawals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcent ... 1780495002
Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
It pulls money out of local schools, which is already weirdly funded in many places (especially AZ).
It pulls out money, only because they have less kids. The money is based on a lot of things, but attendance or population is the main thing. If they decided to go to a different public school, it would take the money away from that local public school too.
Kind of. When you fund schools like AZ based on property taxes from the school district, richer homes fund schools better, and poorer homes less, per student. So when you already have a lower funded school, then pull kids out to go somewhere outside of their district, you have even less. Because the cost of a school is linear based on population. There is a baseline cost you need just to open the doors.
I agree that based on school districts, it doesn't help that the richer schools are better funded as the richer neighborhoods have higher amount of taxes paying for them. The idea of the voucher program was to help those in poorer neighborhoods get access to better education and could use the money towards a private education.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"

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Indy
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Indy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:04 am

In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:59 am
Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:56 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:52 am
Indy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:43 am


Parents abusing the voucher money is bad. My question on this is how much did they want to oversee it?

As far as it being bad. It should be there to help the poor, but I can also see how it's the rich parents that use it more. Should it have some limits to it for parents based on income? As far as it screwing the poor, please explain.
It pulls money out of local schools, which is already weirdly funded in many places (especially AZ).
It pulls out money, only because they have less kids. The money is based on a lot of things, but attendance or population is the main thing. If they decided to go to a different public school, it would take the money away from that local public school too.
Kind of. When you fund schools like AZ based on property taxes from the school district, richer homes fund schools better, and poorer homes less, per student. So when you already have a lower funded school, then pull kids out to go somewhere outside of their district, you have even less. Because the cost of a school is linear based on population. There is a baseline cost you need just to open the doors.
I agree that based on school districts, it doesn't help that the richer schools are better funded as the richer neighborhoods have higher amount of taxes paying for them. The idea of the voucher program was to help those in poorer neighborhoods get access to better education and could use the money towards a private education.
Yeah, I get the original thought behind it. But it has been bastardized quite a bit. Not to mention the fraud from users, as well as fraud from "charter" schools that were more about making profits than educating our kids.

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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:22 pm

The idea of the voucher program was to help those in poorer neighborhoods get access to better education and could use the money towards a private education.
I don’t agree that the idea of the voucher program was to help those in poor neighborhoods at all. From all I have read, the idea behind the vouchers was 100% Republican and not designed to help the poor at all. From what I have read the whole idea behind the voucher program was to help those going to private schools save money. Poor people generally don’t go to private schools. Wealthier people go to private schools and those people don’t like paying taxes for public schools on top of paying for private schooling.

I am under the impression that the Republican party wants to end public schooling altogether and replace it with all private schools. That way they no longer pay taxes for public schools and they get a tax break for whatever school they send their kids to. That is a win win for them

On the other hand a non wealthy single mother with two kids isn’t going to be able to afford ANY private school even with vouchers. Thats a lose lose for the poor and another win for those more fortunate since their kids are no longer compete with the poor for jobs and upper education.

IMO Republicans have the same goal in mind with education as they do with the debt. They say our public schools are failing and starve them for tax dollars since the don’t “deserve” more money, which speeds along the failing part and then to the rescue are vouchers.

They run up the debt, give out tax breaks to the rich and then say we need to starve social programs for the poor to lower the debt.

I know no Republican will agree with me but, I am convinced that is the plan. Help the rich, starve the poor.

I am not rich and I am not poor. I don’t have any kids but, don’t mind paying taxes for schools since education is the backbone to our entire country and I believe all Americans children deserve a decent education, not just the wealthy.

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In2ition
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by In2ition » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:30 pm

This is why the divide is so great. How could either side agree to anything when both sides create straw men arguments about the other?
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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:10 pm

straw man
/ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

I am not intentionally misrepresenting my stance. I truly believe my stance. I will gather evidence on this subject.

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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:48 pm

Letters: Trump’s voucher plan will hurt poor students
https://www.thestate.com/opinion/letter ... 61404.html
COLUMBIA, SC
The president’s proposed budget cuts federal education spending by $9 billion or 13.5 percent. The two-page budget summary said it will shift $1.4 billion into charter schools, private-school vouchers and portability while eliminating $2.4 billion in teacher training and programs that serve low-income students.

Three big problems with school ‘choice’ that supporters don’t like to talk about
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ans ... d734d34070
Privatized school choice, in its various forms, has been rapidly gaining ground in many of our states. The thinly veiled agenda of privatized choice is the destruction of public schools, which Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos and her allies refer to as “government schools.”

1. Privatized school choice will inevitably reduce funding for your local neighborhood public schools
A recent study by Innovation Ohio demonstrated the loss of millions of dollars intended for the Van Wert County local public schools (recently visited by DeVos) that instead flowed to charter schools. As the study’s authors explained, the burden for financing charter schools has shifted to local taxpayers, resulting in steep increases in taxes.

As charter schools and voucher programs expand, the public school system has to reduce services, enrichment programs and sports, or it has to raise local taxes, or both. This negatively impacts the community at large and has a negative effect on home values

As charter schools and voucher programs expand, the public school system has to reduce services, enrichment programs and sports, or it has to raise local taxes, or both. This negatively impacts the community at large and has a negative effect on home values.

ESAs give parents 90 percent of public education costs on a debit card in exchange for not sending their child to a public school.

Another Arizona voucher program, the education tax-credit program, is no more than a gift of public funds masquerading as a “good cause.” Contributors get a dollar-for-dollar credit for making their donation. Because every dollar given is returned to the donor, all of the state’s taxpayers are footing the bill for the vouchers. It has been likened to a money-laundering scheme.

A similar program in South Carolina can be manipulated so that high-income taxpayers can make money by getting all of their money back and then receiving federal deductions. A wealth management firm in Virginia explains how you can use these tax credits to make money. The wealthier you are, the more you can make.

3. Additional administrative costs coupled with a lack of transparency waste taxpayer dollars and open the door to excessive legal and fraudulent personal gain

A lack of transparency not only allows exorbitant administrative costs to be veiled; it makes fraud and abuse far more difficult to detect. Every week brings news reports of scandals involving charter schools. There were six reports in a recent one-week period, including a charter principal engaged in credit card fraud, a charter management company that left a school stranded midyear, and the Celerity charter chain, which is under investigation by the FBI for years of questionable spending and conflicts of interest. ProgressOhio recently recounted dozens of charter-school scandal reports that have taken place in that state from 2013 to 2015, describing their list as incomplete.

And the ESA voucher programs are also ripe for abuse. The Arizona ESA program, the oldest in the nation, has been associated with numerous cases of fraud.

Betsy DeVos' School Voucher Plan Hurts Poor Kids. PERIOD.
https://www.yourtango.com/2017299885/be ... ren-period

Dismal Voucher Results Surprise Researchers as DeVos Era Begins
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/upsh ... egins.html

Top 10 Reasons School Choice Is No Choice
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/to ... e1e0e20be3
1) Voucher programs almost never provide students with full tuition.
2) Charter and voucher schools don’t have to accept everyone
3) Charter Schools are notorious for kicking out hard to teach students
4) Voucher and charter schools actually give parents less choice than traditional public schools
5) Charter Schools do no better and often much worse than traditional public schools
6) Charters and voucher schools increase segregation
7) Charter and voucher schools take away funding at traditional public schools
8) Properly funding parallel school systems would be incredibly wasteful and expensive
9) School choice takes away attention from the real problems in our public schools – poverty and funding equity
10) School choice is not supported by a grass roots movement. It is supported by billionaires.

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Indy
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Indy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:39 am

Nodack wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:22 pm
The idea of the voucher program was to help those in poorer neighborhoods get access to better education and could use the money towards a private education.
I don’t agree that the idea of the voucher program was to help those in poor neighborhoods at all. From all I have read, the idea behind the vouchers was 100% Republican and not designed to help the poor at all. From what I have read the whole idea behind the voucher program was to help those going to private schools save money. Poor people generally don’t go to private schools. Wealthier people go to private schools and those people don’t like paying taxes for public schools on top of paying for private schooling.

...
In2ition wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:30 pm
This is why the divide is so great. How could either side agree to anything when both sides create straw men arguments about the other?
To be fair to both of you, I think we may be conflating two aspects of "vouchers."

One aspect is simply giving everyone the tax money back used for schools, and let them decide where to send their kids (could be public/charter/private).

Another aspect is strictly designed to give tax money to people that want to send their kids to private school.

Clearly the first is a generic attempt to help everyone find the best schooling option for their kids, regardless of if it worked or not.

The second is directly intended to save money for those (richer) people that can send their kids to private schools.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:10 pm

Our nation's schools are woefully underfunded. Anything that pulls more money away from them is a bad thing. It is especially bad if we pull money away from underfunded schools so that rich people can put their kids into expensive private schools.

If there is anything we ought to be completely willing to invest money in as a nation, it should be education and health care. Take care of people, let them grow and learn. It's the best investment you can possibly make in your nation's future. Don't go cheap on either of these things.

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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:33 pm

Democrats retook the House. There is now a check on Trump. If he wants to get anything done without a Presidential decree he will have to play ball. In the back of my mind I know that pretty much nothing will get done. Democrats will appose everything he does and he will complain about obstruction like every President before him did. They will start a bunch of investigations and it will be like Obama’s second term with the roles reversed. Par for the course in the US.

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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:15 pm

The next two months are going to be a full blown s*** show now that the House is flipping in January. Trump took all of about 12 hours to make his first move, firing Sessions. I'm afraid things are going to get much uglier before they start to look better.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:22 pm

'Echoing at the state Capitol': Arizona Prop. 305 to expand school vouchers defeated
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/po ... 809291002/

A grassroots group of parents successfully overturned the massive school voucher expansion supported by the state's Republican establishment, as the "no" vote on Proposition 305 won by a wide margin, the Associated Press has projected.


Proposition 127

Arizona voters have rejected a measure requiring regulated utilities to obtain 50 percent of their electricity from renewable energy sources like solar or wind power by 2030.

Steyer poured millions into the proposed constitutional amendment — one that was fiercely opposed by the state's largest utility, Arizona Public Service. A group backed by the utility fought the measure, spending millions of dollars on ads, and rounding up a wide coalition of opponents.

The utility's parent company spent more than $25 million to oppose the measure, arguing it would raise consumer costs by as much as $1,000 a year per customer annually and hurt the reliability of the state's electrical grid.

Initiative supporters say Arizona hasn't taken advantage of its role as the sunniest state in U.S. to develop more solar energy. California's Legislature enacted a similar measure in 2015.

Proposition 306

A two-pronged ballot measure that changes election rules has passed. Rules from the bipartisan Citizens Clean Election Commission are now subject to oversight from a partisan board selected by the governor. (What?)

Democrats pushed for voters to strike down Proposition 306, as they didn’t want the Governor's Regulatory Review Council to have a say over election rules, particularly those tied to the mandatory disclosure of campaign donors.

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:26 pm

Nodack wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:22 pm
Proposition 127

Arizona voters have rejected a measure requiring regulated utilities to obtain 50 percent of their electricity from renewable energy sources like solar or wind power by 2030.

Steyer poured millions into the proposed constitutional amendment — one that was fiercely opposed by the state's largest utility, Arizona Public Service. A group backed by the utility fought the measure, spending millions of dollars on ads, and rounding up a wide coalition of opponents.

The utility's parent company spent more than $25 million to oppose the measure, arguing it would raise consumer costs by as much as $1,000 a year per customer annually and hurt the reliability of the state's electrical grid.

Initiative supporters say Arizona hasn't taken advantage of its role as the sunniest state in U.S. to develop more solar energy. California's Legislature enacted a similar measure in 2015.
So the parent company, which is probably worth over a billion dollars, spent $25 million to oppose this proposition in part because it would raise consumer costs by as much as $1,000 a year?

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Cap
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Cap » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:40 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:26 pm
Nodack wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:22 pm
Proposition 127

Arizona voters have rejected a measure requiring regulated utilities to obtain 50 percent of their electricity from renewable energy sources like solar or wind power by 2030.

Steyer poured millions into the proposed constitutional amendment — one that was fiercely opposed by the state's largest utility, Arizona Public Service. A group backed by the utility fought the measure, spending millions of dollars on ads, and rounding up a wide coalition of opponents.

The utility's parent company spent more than $25 million to oppose the measure, arguing it would raise consumer costs by as much as $1,000 a year per customer annually and hurt the reliability of the state's electrical grid.

Initiative supporters say Arizona hasn't taken advantage of its role as the sunniest state in U.S. to develop more solar energy. California's Legislature enacted a similar measure in 2015.
So the parent company, which is probably worth over a billion dollars, spent $25 million to oppose this proposition in part because it would raise consumer costs by as much as $1,000 a year?

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.
Seems to me like popular referendum is a poor way to do this kind of regulation.

Not that I trust our legislature to do it any better. :|
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 pm

The capitalistic overreach is disgusting to me. I'm all for allowing people to become successful through their own legal ingenuity, but stuff like this is an abuse of authority and the good faith provided in a free society.

It gives capitalism a bad name, and pointing out these kinds of problems paints critics as socialists or communists.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Nodack
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Re: Midterm Elections

Post by Nodack » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:40 pm

I knew the prop would fail. Their ads were too good. “It raises costs $1000 a year, hurts schools and makes our grid unreliable. California tried this and their rates are skyrocketing.” I wanted to vote against it when I saw that. Then I decided to do research knowing that these ads are almost all BS now days. I read an AZ Central article and a KTAR article that changed my mind. When I saw that the ads were sponsored by the power company I went ok, now I get the picture. How much of their claims are true? I don’t know. I am skeptical of claims that are a futuristic guessing game where they make it sound as bad as possible.

AZ gets more Sun than just about any other state in the US. We should be taking advantage of that.

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