Democratic primary watch

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BigLewy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by BigLewy » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:10 am

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:19 am
I just don't know what we should do with accusations like this. It seems like with #MeToo the default is to believe all women, but I don't think it is right to just assume guilt. To me, "believe women" means to look into things and investigate them. But I still believe strongly in the burden of proof and innocent until proven guilty. I didn't want Kavanaugh to be appointed to the SC, but it was less that I was certain he assaulted Blasey-Ford and more that I thought his demeanor in the hearing was completely unprofessional, angry, and openly partisan. He yelled at the senators asking him questions, talked about alleged conspiracy plots run by George Soros and the Clintons, and implied that he would seek revenge on the Dems. That was conduct unbecoming of an SC justice.

I'd similarly want the charges against Biden to be looked into. But I believe that if there is no real evidence, there's no particular punishment to be meted out for it. Trump has allegations against him by 28 women, so it seems the electorate doesn't really consider this kind of conduct to be a deal-breaker.
Mori, I agree. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt initially, but I also don't think you can just blindly say that you have to believe all women. Kavanaugh's demeanor was that of a bully, for sure. But playing Devil's Advocate, wouldn't you be furious if someone was trying to destroy your entire career for (what he thought) were baseless allegations? I mean, I'd be pissed off beyond belief, especially if I was actually innocent. Does that excuse his behavior at times, especially about revenge on the Dems? Absolutely not. I think he had a right to be angry about what was occurring, but should have kept his cool a little more and been more professional in a few areas.

And yes, if there proves to be no real evidence against Biden, then it should be dropped. Trump obviously has more accusations against him than Biden, and I think they are both disgusting creeps. My vote ultimately means nothing in the election because CT blindly votes blue regardless due to the few big cities making up a good percentage of the population, but I won't be voting for either of these two pigs.

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Superbone
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Superbone » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:55 am

BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:44 am
Actually shocked CNN posted this, but I'm sure it will be crickets as usual, even though there appears to be much more behind these allegations than with the Kavanaugh circus. The more Biden stays silent, the worse it looks for him, IMO.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/25/politics ... index.html

Also:

https://www.businessinsider.com/former- ... ssion=true

I also love how Rose McGowan called out that loser Alyssa Milano for the fraud that she is. She went from "believe all women" to due process as soon as her little buddy Biden got in the news for the wrong reasons. Hypocrisy at its finest.
OK, let's say all women are right. Who's got more sexual abuse allegations against them? Biden or Trump? Trump "wins" in a landslide.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:29 am

BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:10 am
Mori, I agree. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt initially, but I also don't think you can just blindly say that you have to believe all women. Kavanaugh's demeanor was that of a bully, for sure. But playing Devil's Advocate, wouldn't you be furious if someone was trying to destroy your entire career for (what he thought) were baseless allegations? I mean, I'd be pissed off beyond belief, especially if I was actually innocent. Does that excuse his behavior at times, especially about revenge on the Dems? Absolutely not. I think he had a right to be angry about what was occurring, but should have kept his cool a little more and been more professional in a few areas.
He can be "furious" internally without it spilling out into the hearing. A Supreme Court justice must be calm, rational, reasonable, and professional at all times. His conduct in the hearing was utterly inappropriate for a justice. Conspiracy by the Clintons and Soros? Revenge? Disqualifying remarks.
BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:10 am
And yes, if there proves to be no real evidence against Biden, then it should be dropped. Trump obviously has more accusations against him than Biden, and I think they are both disgusting creeps. My vote ultimately means nothing in the election because CT blindly votes blue regardless due to the few big cities making up a good percentage of the population, but I won't be voting for either of these two pigs.
One is an aspiring dictator who has flaunted the rule of law, enriched his family, pardoned criminal buddies, colluded with foreign countries to rig elections, and much more. The other is a milquetoast moderate who sometimes stutters and has been a bit too handsy and personal-spacey with women. The choice is easy.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:10 pm

Conservative (but never-Trumpy) web site The Bulwark has some interesting opinion pieces on the Tara Reade / Biden allegations.

https://thebulwark.com/what-biden-has-to-say/
https://arcdigital.media/a-tale-of-two- ... 4504d6228a

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Split T
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Split T » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm

Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:05 pm

BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:01 am

If you think i will just blindly support someone based on political affiliation, then you're sorely mistaken. I have no issues whatsoever calling out disgusting behavior. This is why I hesitated to even post here, because now I'm being pegged as someone who basically blindly supports the conservative line. I don't watch Fox News (never have in my life actually), I don't have a Confederate flag waving in my backyard and I don't walk around in a MAGA hat.
I don't think anyone is accusing you of that BL.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm

Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm
Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.

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Split T
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Split T » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:31 pm

Indy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm
Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.
I understand that reasoning. I’m voting in Utah, so there’s no chance Trump loses...so my vote isn’t that important.
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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:54 pm

BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:01 am
Nodack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 am
I have seen the allegations against Biden by this woman just about every day for the past month. I would be willing to disqualify Biden in a heart beat if the same standard was held to Trump, who has sexual assault claims against him by well over 20 women.

What about you BigLewy? Do you believe all women, don’t believe any women or is it just like everyone else and only believe women who are accusing political enemies and never believe accusers of your allies? Do you believe Biden's accuser? Do you believe the 20+ Trump accusers? Do you believe Kavenaugh’s accuser? I am guessing you believe Biden’s accuser but, not Trumps and Kanenough’s accusers. Am I right?

I say we disqualify Biden, Trump and Kavenaugh. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
I believe women that have credible accusations, regardless of any affiliation. I will initially "believe all women" when their accusations come to light, and then let things play out. I have seen accusations of assault, only for them to eventually be proven as an outright lie. I've also seen cases of assault that were swept under the rug, when something did in fact occur. So, I like to give accusers the benefit of the doubt initially. If there was more solid evidence on Kavanaugh, then absolutely he should have been taken to the woodshed. In my eyes, there were too many inconsistencies, but that's a separate topic. I believe Trump's accusers, because there are too many of them with solid details for at least some of them not to be true. I've always thought he was a disgusting pig. And yes, Biden has less accusations, I'm not arguing that, but just like Trump, there are too many accusations out there for at least some of them not to be true.

If you think i will just blindly support someone based on political affiliation, then you're sorely mistaken. I have no issues whatsoever calling out disgusting behavior. This is why I hesitated to even post here, because now I'm being pegged as someone who basically blindly supports the conservative line. I don't watch Fox News (never have in my life actually), I don't have a Confederate flag waving in my backyard and I don't walk around in a MAGA hat.

But to your original comment Nodack, sure disqualify all three of them. I'd be happy to if they were all guilty of what they've been accused of.
Fair take.

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3rdside
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by 3rdside » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:01 am

Is it too late to replace Biden with Mark Cuban?

The D's gonna get slammed for their hypocrisy, Biden's going to look like a an old age-demented touchy feely weirdo, and Trump's going to skate through with the help of every authoritarian state's campaign interference..

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3rdside
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by 3rdside » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:20 am

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:29 am
BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:10 am
Mori, I agree. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt initially, but I also don't think you can just blindly say that you have to believe all women. Kavanaugh's demeanor was that of a bully, for sure. But playing Devil's Advocate, wouldn't you be furious if someone was trying to destroy your entire career for (what he thought) were baseless allegations? I mean, I'd be pissed off beyond belief, especially if I was actually innocent. Does that excuse his behavior at times, especially about revenge on the Dems? Absolutely not. I think he had a right to be angry about what was occurring, but should have kept his cool a little more and been more professional in a few areas.
He can be "furious" internally without it spilling out into the hearing. A Supreme Court justice must be calm, rational, reasonable, and professional at all times. His conduct in the hearing was utterly inappropriate for a justice. Conspiracy by the Clintons and Soros? Revenge? Disqualifying remarks.
Exactly - and my highest court in the land people need to be practically squeaky clean. You might make an argument (barely) that what he did wasn't that bad / it was college-they were drunk / it's a bygone era etc.

But to me it sounded more serious than that, and Blasey Ford was credible - why would that type of person voluntarily sign up for a public airing of dirty laundry and a subsequent life time of death threats unless there was something to it? - so Kavanaugh should never have been nominated in the first place on that basis.

It was a sad day seeing him cry and squeal his way into a SC seat.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:48 am

Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Indy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm
Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.
I understand that reasoning. I’m voting in Utah, so there’s no chance Trump loses...so my vote isn’t that important.
Latest polls have Utah a +5 for Trump (which is historically low for a GOP nominee). And the state loves Romney (he was a +38! over Obama). If Amash decides to run, and Romney publicly endorses him, I can see him pulling 5% of the vote in Utah (and Michigan).

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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:02 am

3rdside wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:01 am
Is it too late to replace Biden with Mark Cuban?

The D's gonna get slammed for their hypocrisy, Biden's going to look like a an old age-demented touchy feely weirdo, and Trump's going to skate through with the help of every authoritarian state's campaign interference..
I think the media will be quite kind to Biden. That factor may cause them to downplay the seriousness of the Reade allegations.

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Split T
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Split T » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:27 am

Indy wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:48 am
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Indy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm
Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.
I understand that reasoning. I’m voting in Utah, so there’s no chance Trump loses...so my vote isn’t that important.
Latest polls have Utah a +5 for Trump (which is historically low for a GOP nominee). And the state loves Romney (he was a +38! over Obama). If Amash decides to run, and Romney publicly endorses him, I can see him pulling 5% of the vote in Utah (and Michigan).
Hmmm, surprising. Maybe I just hear the vocal trump supporters too much. I’ll have to keep an eye on that
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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:54 am

Split T wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:27 am
Indy wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:48 am
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Indy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:29 pm
Two bad choices, even if one is significantly worse than the other, is still two bad choices. I don’t know what I’m going to do come election time. I do know I won’t vote for Trump, but I don’t want to vote for Biden either. The sexual assault claims are concerning. I wasn’t even a big fan of him without them. What would the logistics of him stepping down be? How would the democratic nominee be chosen?

If we could determine he was innocent, I’d vote for him, but I don’t have any confidence in anything being resolved. I hate that we determine guilt(as a society, not anyone specifically in here) based on political affiliation.

We’ll see I guess, I’m just hoping for something other than Biden with an unresolved allegation hanging over his head VS Trump come November.
I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.
I understand that reasoning. I’m voting in Utah, so there’s no chance Trump loses...so my vote isn’t that important.
Latest polls have Utah a +5 for Trump (which is historically low for a GOP nominee). And the state loves Romney (he was a +38! over Obama). If Amash decides to run, and Romney publicly endorses him, I can see him pulling 5% of the vote in Utah (and Michigan).
Hmmm, surprising. Maybe I just hear the vocal trump supporters too much. I’ll have to keep an eye on that
It is still really early. And last election Trump won 45 to 29 for Clinton. Meaning 26% of the vote went to 3rd party candidates (almost all of it to McMullin, who is from Utah). Considering the last 5 elections before that saw the GOP winning with an average of 66% of the vote, it looks like almost all of the 3rd party votes came from the typical GOP camp, not the dem side.

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Split T
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Split T » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:11 am

Indy wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:54 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:27 am
Indy wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:48 am
Split T wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Indy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:08 pm


I am not sure if I will be voting in Michigan or in AZ, but I do know that I will be voting for Biden because he is the only person with a chance to beat Trump. And we may not have much of a democracy left if we re-elect Trump. I guess if I lived in Kentucky or in New York I would be more willing to write in a candidate or vote for a 3rd party candidate. But I can't do that in any state that is even close to a purple state.
I understand that reasoning. I’m voting in Utah, so there’s no chance Trump loses...so my vote isn’t that important.
Latest polls have Utah a +5 for Trump (which is historically low for a GOP nominee). And the state loves Romney (he was a +38! over Obama). If Amash decides to run, and Romney publicly endorses him, I can see him pulling 5% of the vote in Utah (and Michigan).
Hmmm, surprising. Maybe I just hear the vocal trump supporters too much. I’ll have to keep an eye on that
It is still really early. And last election Trump won 45 to 29 for Clinton. Meaning 26% of the vote went to 3rd party candidates (almost all of it to McMullin, who is from Utah). Considering the last 5 elections before that saw the GOP winning with an average of 66% of the vote, it looks like almost all of the 3rd party votes came from the typical GOP camp, not the dem side.
I remember that, McMullin getting over 20% was a bit of a perfect storm.

1) Utah didn’t like Trump or Clinton. Both overwhelmingly lost in the primaries here.
2) McMullin is LDS and focused really hard here in Utah where there is a huge LDS population.

I don’t think we’ll see a 3rd party candidate get as much support here. Romney backing them would help, though Romney has fallen out of favor with a lot of people here. Though that just might be the pro-trump crowd that is going to vote for trump regardless. Will be interesting to see. I’ll definitely keep an eye on it.
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BigLewy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by BigLewy » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:50 pm

Nodack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:54 pm
BigLewy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:01 am
Nodack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 am
I have seen the allegations against Biden by this woman just about every day for the past month. I would be willing to disqualify Biden in a heart beat if the same standard was held to Trump, who has sexual assault claims against him by well over 20 women.

What about you BigLewy? Do you believe all women, don’t believe any women or is it just like everyone else and only believe women who are accusing political enemies and never believe accusers of your allies? Do you believe Biden's accuser? Do you believe the 20+ Trump accusers? Do you believe Kavenaugh’s accuser? I am guessing you believe Biden’s accuser but, not Trumps and Kanenough’s accusers. Am I right?

I say we disqualify Biden, Trump and Kavenaugh. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
I believe women that have credible accusations, regardless of any affiliation. I will initially "believe all women" when their accusations come to light, and then let things play out. I have seen accusations of assault, only for them to eventually be proven as an outright lie. I've also seen cases of assault that were swept under the rug, when something did in fact occur. So, I like to give accusers the benefit of the doubt initially. If there was more solid evidence on Kavanaugh, then absolutely he should have been taken to the woodshed. In my eyes, there were too many inconsistencies, but that's a separate topic. I believe Trump's accusers, because there are too many of them with solid details for at least some of them not to be true. I've always thought he was a disgusting pig. And yes, Biden has less accusations, I'm not arguing that, but just like Trump, there are too many accusations out there for at least some of them not to be true.

If you think i will just blindly support someone based on political affiliation, then you're sorely mistaken. I have no issues whatsoever calling out disgusting behavior. This is why I hesitated to even post here, because now I'm being pegged as someone who basically blindly supports the conservative line. I don't watch Fox News (never have in my life actually), I don't have a Confederate flag waving in my backyard and I don't walk around in a MAGA hat.

But to your original comment Nodack, sure disqualify all three of them. I'd be happy to if they were all guilty of what they've been accused of.
Fair take.
Nodack-apologies if I came across as rude, certainly didn't mean to and I love having civil discourse with folks. First week unemployed, so I'm a little stressed and didn't intend to come across as snippy or accusatory.

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:49 am

No problems. I enjoy civil discourse too. March 9th was my last gig. I understand the stress.

BigLewy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by BigLewy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:13 pm

Nodack wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:49 am
No problems. I enjoy civil discourse too. March 9th was my last gig. I understand the stress.
Wow, I feel even more like a jerk now, whining about 5 days of unemployment, which is nothing compared to what you've faced. Good luck and I hope you can get your situation squared away quickly.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:43 pm

This is not to say "don't worry" and "everything will be fine" or any other platitudes...

I was laid off during the huge economic downturn following 9/11. It was a really stressful time. But it led me to my current company and that has been the best move of my career. In hindsight it was a great thing for me and I have felt that way for the past +17 years.

Of course nearly every company is facing downsizing and layoffs and furloughs and mandatory pay decreases right now, including me, so who knows what tomorrow brings.

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