Democratic primary watch

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Sat May 30, 2020 9:32 am

Cornel West: America Is A Failed Social Experiment, Neoliberal Wing Of Democratic Party Must Be Fought
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ought.html
And what happens is we have a neofascist gangster in the White House who doesn't care for the most part. You've got a neoliberal wing of the Democratic party that is now in the driver's seat with the collapse of brother Bernie and they really don't know what to do because all they want to do is show more black faces -- show more black faces. But often times those black faces are losing legitimacy too because the Black Lives Matter movement emerged under a black president, a black attorney general, and a black Homeland Security [Secretary] and they couldn't deliver. So when you talk about the masses of black people, the precious poor and working-class black people, brown, red, yellow, whatever color, they're the ones left out and they feel so thoroughly powerless, helpless, hopeless, then you get rebellion.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Sat May 30, 2020 10:15 am

I am not a Bernie hater, but I have trouble with the attitude that the more moderate part of the Democratic party is some knid of enemy that must be "fought." I think in general the moderate Dems are being pragmatic, seeking policy positions that are in some ways a compromise in order to find a common ground that will appeal to independents and moderate Republicans as well as Dems. Many moderate Dems do support more progressive policies, like Medicare for All, taxing the rich, and so on, but they feel that the way to get there is by more gradual progress and more universally popular moderate policies as a bridge. I don't think that makes them an enemy that must be fought by the left.

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Sat May 30, 2020 10:44 am

I think he is frustrated. He knows Republicans have no interest in helping the poor and minorities. Blacks put their stock in Dems and he thinks they let them down and just give lip service and nothing else.

It has been a trifecta. In Atlanta the police accidentally serve a warrant to the wrong place and end up killing a black woman in her own apartment. Then in Minneapolis cops kill a black man almost in spite in front of a crowd demanding they stop choking him. Then we get a liberal white woman in the park in a beef with a bird watcher who asked her to leash her dog. She calls the cops and says “There’s an African American man threatening my life”. Add in a covid lockdown and you have a recipe for bad things to happen.

I think the guy is right about one thing. There will never be enough change without an uprising.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:47 am

Nodack wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 10:44 am
There will never be enough change without an uprising.
agreed

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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:56 am

I don't like violence as the answer to anything. I can see that things are bad for many Americans, especially those in ethnic minorities. But I don't think looting and rioting is helpful to the situation. The first step comes in electing better leadership that will listen to them at all. Then non-violent protest can be used to appeal to the reason of the leaders. But this current administration won't listen to protestors and make things better for them. Quite the opposite: they'll unleash the National Guard and police to fight them back and become all the more intransigent.

I just hope everything starts to calm down soon. I worry about everybody's safety. And all these people out together in crowds in the streets are probably spreading the coronavirus even more. We could have a huge second wave due to these protests. Really sad week/time for the USA.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:05 am

can you name a significant change to anything that came from peaceful protests?

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Cap
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Cap » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:41 am

An uprising, seriously? Angry progressives on one side, with the military, law enforcement, and 2A nutters on the other. How do you think that’s going to go?
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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:25 am

It could go lots of ways. None of them are pretty. “You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.”

Racial equality, income equality, health care for all, a government for the people, not a government for the corporations who pay the most lobbying dollars to politicians, strict term limits, money out of elections, corporations not allowed to donate to politicians, no tax exempt for religious groups raising money for a good cause that happens to be getting a politician elected.

None of these thing are going to ever happen with our current government unless they are forced to. They are in power and won’t ever do those things unless we Americans force them to. We can elect Biden and run the tables on the House and Senate and still none of those things will happen imo. As sad and scary as an uprising is, I see it as the only way change is going to happen.

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Cap
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Cap » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:18 am

Nodack wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:25 am
As sad and scary as an uprising is, I see it as the only way change is going to happen.
But if you lose the war, which you will, it just makes things worse.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:36 am

I’m not so sure about that. The police and the military are made up of Americans.

NYPD Officers Take Knee In Solidarity With Protesters; De Blasio Praises Them For ‘Listening, Working With The Community’
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/06/01 ... community/

Michigan Sheriff Took Off His Helmet and Marched With Protesters
https://dnyuz.com/2020/05/31/michigan-s ... rotesters/
“We want to be with you all for real,” Sheriff Swanson said, addressing the demonstrators who had gathered in Flint, Mich., according to footage from WEYI-TV.

He said he made it a point to take off his helmet and that officers had put down their batons. “I want to make this a parade, not a protest,” he said.

As the demonstrators applauded, he shook a protester’s hand and high-fived another. He then acknowledged the children in the crowd. Gesturing to the officers behind him, he asked the crowd what he and the other officers needed to do.

The crowd chanted: “Walk with us. Walk with us. Walk with us.”

And so he did.

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Cap
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Cap » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Nodack wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:36 am
I’m not so sure about that. The police and the military are made up of Americans.
Yes, but the vast majority of them are Trumpers.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:14 pm

Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:05 am
can you name a significant change to anything that came from peaceful protests?
I don't have a ton of examples, and I get what you are saying that sometimes a strong message is needed. But I thought that the recent women's march, the march for science, and the protests against the Trump Muslim ban were all pretty effective. I don't know if you can say that they directly led to law changes, but I think they made public opinion clear and put pressure on our leadership to do the right thing. If you want to look outside the US, recent protests in Hong Kong and South Korea had big impacts. The SK President even was ousted in response to widespread protest a few years back.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:21 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:14 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:05 am
can you name a significant change to anything that came from peaceful protests?
I don't have a ton of examples, and I get what you are saying that sometimes a strong message is needed. But I thought that the recent women's march, the march for science, and the protests against the Trump Muslim ban were all pretty effective. I don't know if you can say that they directly led to law changes, but I think they made public opinion clear and put pressure on our leadership to do the right thing. If you want to look outside the US, recent protests in Hong Kong and South Korea had big impacts. The SK President even was ousted in response to widespread protest a few years back.
the muslim ban was partially upheld by the courts, and other parts are still being challenged. Nothing has changed there. What did the women's march change in America? And if the science march was effective, we wouldn't be seeing the White House for the CDC to change their guidelines for re-opening states.

As for hong kong, how long lasting was the change? And there were plenty of violent protests there.

Maybe there is a more effective way, but even the beginning of this country was founded on violent protest and looting.

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:35 pm

I just watched Gov Cuomo give an interview.

“In the long term, use this moment. You look at history. When did change come? Change came when the people insisted on change. Change comes when the people demand it. They are demanding it, finally! Let’s have a full agenda. Let’s talk about investigation of police abuse. No choke holds. Nationwide standard for undo force. Let’s talk about funding of education and equal funding in education. Let’s talk about affordable housing. Let’s talk about a child poverty agenda but, lets use the moment constructively.”

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ShelC
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by ShelC » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:48 pm

The elected officials in this country could snap their fingers and fix a lot of problems. They choose not to. The only thing that really affects change IMO is cutting the money off. When viewers boycott advertisers of certain TV programs/personalities, it leads to change. If there were a way to cut the money off from corporations backing certain officials or agendas, that would be a start.

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Indy
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:03 pm

ShelC wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:48 pm
The elected officials in this country could snap their fingers and fix a lot of problems. They choose not to. The only thing that really affects change IMO is cutting the money off. When viewers boycott advertisers of certain TV programs/personalities, it leads to change. If there were a way to cut the money off from corporations backing certain officials or agendas, that would be a start.
To an extent. But then PACs and Super PACs get them booted the next election because they can dump hundreds of millions of dollars (and get so much free content from multiple outlets) and the new folks under the control of new/different special interests start over.

I don't know if it is most important, but certainly near the top, is getting money out of our political system. Especially CU.

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Superbone
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Superbone » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:58 pm

Nodack wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:36 am
I’m not so sure about that. The police and the military are made up of Americans.

NYPD Officers Take Knee In Solidarity With Protesters; De Blasio Praises Them For ‘Listening, Working With The Community’
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/06/01 ... community/

Michigan Sheriff Took Off His Helmet and Marched With Protesters
https://dnyuz.com/2020/05/31/michigan-s ... rotesters/
“We want to be with you all for real,” Sheriff Swanson said, addressing the demonstrators who had gathered in Flint, Mich., according to footage from WEYI-TV.

He said he made it a point to take off his helmet and that officers had put down their batons. “I want to make this a parade, not a protest,” he said.

As the demonstrators applauded, he shook a protester’s hand and high-fived another. He then acknowledged the children in the crowd. Gesturing to the officers behind him, he asked the crowd what he and the other officers needed to do.

The crowd chanted: “Walk with us. Walk with us. Walk with us.”

And so he did.
That's awesome. We need more of that.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Mori Chu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:26 am

Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:03 pm
I don't know if it is most important, but certainly near the top, is getting money out of our political system. Especially CU.
Citizens United is a scourge on our country. Getting that changed is crucial.

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Nodack
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:02 pm

I just thought of a new way to elect the President. Both sides have a primary to pick each other’s candidate. The Dems get to pick the Republican candidate out of those in the running. The Republicans pick the Dem candidate. No matter who wins it will be someone tolerable to both sides.

And no you can’t have someone like a Bernie Sanders switch sides and then run as a Republican that the Dems pick as the Republican nominee. They would have to be ones accepted by the Party.

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3rdside
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Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by 3rdside » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:03 am

Interesting idea, you'd probably need to add:

- They'd need to be an established politician (or would they? If not, won't they just be a puppet for the party?)
- Their personal financial records need to be fully transparent


But:

- Does it lead to bad outcomes for the country as each side is motivated to choose the opposition's weakest candidate? Made worse as in any election you're hard up finding one strong candidate from either side, let alone one from both sides let alone a pool of them.
- Would the party just nominate their most extreme candidates? (maybe there is a right to veto any or all of them)

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