Democratic primary watch

Political discussion here. Any reasonable opinion is welcome, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic area, please be nice and respectful to others. No flaming or trolling, please. And please keep political commentary out of the other board areas and confine it to this area. Thanks!
Post Reply
User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:26 am

I can tell that you are trying to make things right with your message and de-escalate, and I appreciate that. But (at the risk of sounding like a lecturing teacher again), I want to advise you that saying "I'm sorry you were offended" is considered a classic non-apology. All the moreso when followed by defensive explanation of the words in question. In essence it implies that the person receiving the apology is the one who has done something wrong by misunderstanding or overreacting to the innocuous words spoken, rather than the person giving the apology being wrong for expressing themselves in a hurtful way or way that is easily misinterpreted to be hurtful.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ly-apology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:42 am

Having said that, I appreciate your words about considering me a peer and respecting my point of view even though we disagree. I appreciate that. I respect your view as well and welcme hearing it here. I know what you mean that you feel outnumbered here with more liberals posting in this area. I hope you know that I value your messages in the Politics folder and always want to see what you have to say about a given topic. You seem to be well-read and thoughtful about the issues, and I don't like only hearing voices that echo the same opinion I already have.

And I appreciate you talking about some of those phrases I quoted. I can see that you didn't mean it literally or mean it to offend me. Let's move on.

As for Fox vs CNN/MSNBC/etc., I do think that CNN and MSNBC in particular are nearly as bad as Fox. We could quibble about whether they are exactly as bad or only mostly as bad. But the fact that they try to be the same kind of beast as Fox (an openly partisan news network) but for the left, is bad. We shouldn't have two sides both broadcasting lies and exaggerations about each other. I really would like to hear unbiased fact-based news as much as possible.

I think what annoyed me about your previous message was that you seemed to think that essentially 100% of the media outside of Fox/Breitbart/etc. is biased and in the tank for the Dems. I really do think that's incorrect. There are a lot of outlets that do not bias themselves toward any particular American political party or ideology. A few include: BBC News, The Economist, the PBS NewsHour, NPR, Politico, Lawfare, and several others. I also think that the quality of journalism at the Washington Post to be quite high. They may go after Trump and Republicans at times, but when they do, I feel it is for valid reasons.

As for never disagreeing with the Dems, you're right that I don't often post things that disagree with them. I pulled up the Dem party platform to think about it. If I were to list some issues I don't agree with them about, here are a few:

- I don't support affirmative action or any sort of quota system that insists on giving a certain number of jobs, scholarships, etc. to a group based on race or demographics.

- I am fine with the death penalty.

- I do think the left sometimes goes too far with political correctness, safe spaces, trying to silence controversial speech, and trying to punish people for actions deemed offensive.

- While I do want everybody to vote and want voting to be more accessible, I think it is fine to require people to have a photo ID to vote. Many Dems seem to think that the very act of asking someone to prove their identity before voting is offensive. I find this silly and extreme.

- I do want strong immigration enforcement, though I want it to be compassionate and humane, and I do not want a wall.

- I think I have more affection and tolerance for religion than some Democrat friends of mine who seem to think that religion is bad or is for people who are gullible or something like that. I think religion as a whole is a strong force for good in the world.

- I don't think college should be free for everyone. That seems like a huge dump of money that we can't afford. I'd rather spend a bit more to help improve K-12 education, if anything.

- I don't especially want the USA to dump lots of our money and resources into foreign aid. I don't generally think of the US as the world's police and also don't want us to be the world's food bank or piggy bank, handing out money and resources to countries left and right. We have a crippling debt and cannot afford it.

https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:08 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:26 am
I can tell that you are trying to make things right with your message and de-escalate, and I appreciate that. But (at the risk of sounding like a lecturing teacher again), I want to advise you that saying "I'm sorry you were offended" is considered a classic non-apology. All the moreso when followed by defensive explanation of the words in question. In essence it implies that the person receiving the apology is the one who has done something wrong by misunderstanding or overreacting to the innocuous words spoken, rather than the person giving the apology being wrong for expressing themselves in a hurtful way or way that is easily misinterpreted to be hurtful.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ly-apology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
I'm sorry. I didn't mean it to come off as a non-apology, or blame you for being offended.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
Cap
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Cap » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:38 am

In2ition wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:54 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 am
In2ition wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:12 pm
ShelC wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:39 pm
It's amazing they'll go thru and pick apart everyone's history but Trump gets a pass on everything from the right. I keep trying to figure out why but it's beyond me.
I think it speaks to the strength of parties and partisanship. We want to cheer for our team/player against the enemy. I also think frankly it helps that the GOP has its own TV network that will broadcast a positive message about their party regardless of current events, and that their party's voters somewhat uniformly tune in to watch that network. The Democrats don't have anything remotely close (nor would I want them to; frankly it's propaganda).
It could be argued that all networks outside of Fox News is a Dem propaganda network. Just about every newspaper too.
It could be argued, and generally is by people who are pretty ignorant and have a knee-jerk reaction to anything outside the conservative bubble. Reality is liberally biased and mainstream reporters report it.

Legitimate journalists, fact checkers, scientists, academics, Wikipedia editors, bureaucrats, courts, are all called liberals. Basically, if your job is to evaluate all available information and argument by objective standards in a transparent process, your entire field of endeavor is dismissed as liberally biased, and any information produced by such a process is automatically suspect.
Interesting.
I’m not sure what that means. I hope it has left you with a better impression than “Cap is liberally biased.”
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 2277
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:17 am

Thanks for posting here in2ition. You are outnumbered here and that can be hard for anybody to take. I met you and I liked you. I don’t think you need to apologize. I and others here say all kinds of mean things about Trump and the GOP and if I were a Republican I could see where I would get pissed reading comments from Dems insulting my guy. I know Trump isn’t really your guy but, he represents your side. Trump makes me angry. I cannot see how anybody could like the guy but, I get that it’s a war between the two party’s and Republicans have put their chips on Trump and are with him good or bad just like a player playing for your team that is a real jerk but, is a valuable player therfore you support him because tou want your team to win.

I think that it is sad that most people that follow politics have picked a side and want their side to win. Win what? Win battles with the other side or the world. It’s not even about the subject it seems, it’s just about winning. I really see it with Trump fans. They always post about “winning” because Trump has made that a big part of his Presidency. “You are going to get so tired of winning that you will beg me to stop.” That attitude is wrong. We are all Americans. If healthcare is better, cheaper and covers all Americans like Trump promised we ALL win. But that’s not what happened. Trump wanted to destroy Obamacare and replace it with Trump care that does all the same things Obama and Dems set out to do and somehow that’s a much better plan because Trump was going to do it. He failed but, my point is that we all want the same thing. We just can’t agree on how to get there because we are at war and to compromise and work together would be a sign of weakness.

I appreciate you trying to work things out here mori. Like you I don’t agree with the Dems on everything and agreed with most of your criticisms of the Dems. I think very few people agree with every stance from their own party unless they have blind loyalty. I think for the most part we are all just sheep being led around by people that probably don’t deserve our loyalty. Don’t let them turn us against each other.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:40 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:42 am
Having said that, I appreciate your words about considering me a peer and respecting my point of view even though we disagree. I appreciate that. I respect your view as well and welcme hearing it here. I know what you mean that you feel outnumbered here with more liberals posting in this area. I hope you know that I value your messages in the Politics folder and always want to see what you have to say about a given topic. You seem to be well-read and thoughtful about the issues, and I don't like only hearing voices that echo the same opinion I already have.

And I appreciate you talking about some of those phrases I quoted. I can see that you didn't mean it literally or mean it to offend me. Let's move on.
There is a lot to unpack here, so I'll try address this in sections instead of as a whole.

I may be the only person with a conservative leaning opinion, but it's possible that other do and feel like their voice is silenced immediately so it's not even worth it posting. I've haven't seen this lately, but I don't think that anyone else has offered a dissenting opinion either. I mean, who wants to get completely flamed by multiple posters when they have a different opinion?
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:42 am
As for Fox vs CNN/MSNBC/etc., I do think that CNN and MSNBC in particular are nearly as bad as Fox. We could quibble about whether they are exactly as bad or only mostly as bad. But the fact that they try to be the same kind of beast as Fox (an openly partisan news network) but for the left, is bad. We shouldn't have two sides both broadcasting lies and exaggerations about each other. I really would like to hear unbiased fact-based news as much as possible.
I agree. I would like the same. And not just facts bent to a certain ideology or only selected facts reported to put one particular party in a good or bad light. I am not a fan of agenda reporting. Unbiased reporting with the entire story would be nice, so we don't have these moments of jumping to conclusions, on either side.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:42 am
I think what annoyed me about your previous message was that you seemed to think that essentially 100% of the media outside of Fox/Breitbart/etc. is biased and in the tank for the Dems. I really do think that's incorrect. There are a lot of outlets that do not bias themselves toward any particular American political party or ideology. A few include: BBC News, The Economist, the PBS NewsHour, NPR, Politico, Lawfare, and several others. I also think that the quality of journalism at the Washington Post to be quite high. They may go after Trump and Republicans at times, but when they do, I feel it is for valid reasons.
Although I think you are mostly correct on this, I've seen many a broadcast by many of these that will leave out relevant information in the story to clip it in a way to make a side look bad. Not all the time, but certainly seen them create strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:42 am
As for never disagreeing with the Dems, you're right that I don't often post things that disagree with them. I pulled up the Dem party platform to think about it. If I were to list some issues I don't agree with them about, here are a few:

- I don't support affirmative action or any sort of quota system that insists on giving a certain number of jobs, scholarships, etc. to a group based on race or demographics.

- I am fine with the death penalty.

- I do think the left sometimes goes too far with political correctness, safe spaces, trying to silence controversial speech, and trying to punish people for actions deemed offensive.

- While I do want everybody to vote and want voting to be more accessible, I think it is fine to require people to have a photo ID to vote. Many Dems seem to think that the very act of asking someone to prove their identity before voting is offensive. I find this silly and extreme.

- I do want strong immigration enforcement, though I want it to be compassionate and humane, and I do not want a wall.

- I think I have more affection and tolerance for religion than some Democrat friends of mine who seem to think that religion is bad or is for people who are gullible or something like that. I think religion as a whole is a strong force for good in the world.

- I don't think college should be free for everyone. That seems like a huge dump of money that we can't afford. I'd rather spend a bit more to help improve K-12 education, if anything.

- I don't especially want the USA to dump lots of our money and resources into foreign aid. I don't generally think of the US as the world's police and also don't want us to be the world's food bank or piggy bank, handing out money and resources to countries left and right. We have a crippling debt and cannot afford it.

https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/
I think we have a lot more in common. Obviously, we love our Suns and hope and strive that they get their stuff together so we can all celebrate a championship, preferably multiple championships.

I don't think the wall really keeps anyone out, and that's not the message you want to send either. All the wall does is slow them down, so that border patrol can do their job in identification to apprehension. It would be better to admit and administer humane treatment, protect them from predators, identify possible health concerns for treatment, and record and research everyone that comes in. I hate to hear about the stories of families coming over, only to have them separated by coyotes and horror stories of sex trafficking. I don't know how legitimate those stories are, but it seems to be a problem in this state, not just immigrants.

I am not for being the world police, but helping countries with money and resources seems like the humane thing to do. I just think you have to do it smartly. You don't just dump aid to countries, only to have it confiscated by some warlord hording it to suppress the people even more. That's obviously doing more harm than good. What do they say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?

When you come to town, we should all get together. First round is on me.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:54 am

Cap wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:38 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:54 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 am
In2ition wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:12 pm


I think it speaks to the strength of parties and partisanship. We want to cheer for our team/player against the enemy. I also think frankly it helps that the GOP has its own TV network that will broadcast a positive message about their party regardless of current events, and that their party's voters somewhat uniformly tune in to watch that network. The Democrats don't have anything remotely close (nor would I want them to; frankly it's propaganda).
It could be argued that all networks outside of Fox News is a Dem propaganda network. Just about every newspaper too.
It could be argued, and generally is by people who are pretty ignorant and have a knee-jerk reaction to anything outside the conservative bubble. Reality is liberally biased and mainstream reporters report it.

Legitimate journalists, fact checkers, scientists, academics, Wikipedia editors, bureaucrats, courts, are all called liberals. Basically, if your job is to evaluate all available information and argument by objective standards in a transparent process, your entire field of endeavor is dismissed as liberally biased, and any information produced by such a process is automatically suspect.
Interesting.
I’m not sure what that means. I hope it has left you with a better impression than “Cap is liberally biased.”
No, nothing against you in that, haha. It was me responding, but really taking it and thinking about what you said before I offered an opinion. I don't think you are wrong, just my immediate reaction was to think out the logical conclusion to this if things keep moving more and more to the left, which they will undoubtedly will. Will their finally be a blowback? Will all journalists move in a direction of a one-up-manship(sp?) of who is most liberal? Then it makes me wonder, what is the line that can't be crossed in people's minds? I don't mean to go down the slippery slope argument, as many don't appreciate that, but I think it needs to be addressed. There may be things that we would never think are alright, going to be advocated for and accepted, and if you don't your _____ or ______, making free speech about topics taboo. I don't even know if this is the right response, just my immediate thoughts.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:14 am

Sen. Cory Booker, as widely expected, announces officially that he is running for President.



He isn't my favorite candidate, but hey, the more the merrier I guess.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:41 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:14 am
Sen. Cory Booker, as widely expected, announces officially that he is running for President.



He isn't my favorite candidate, but hey, the more the merrier I guess.
I could see Booker coming out as the winner of the nomination.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:21 pm

What makes you think that? How could you foresee the primary unfolding? The biggest wildcard to me is Bernie Sanders; he seems likely to run, and he has a chaotic effect on the party and on the primary IMO.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:33 pm

Idk, he just seems like the kind of candidate that people would rally around. I don't even know what platforms he's standing on, except he's using a similar version of our pathetic Suns slogan “Together, America, we will rise.” That hasn't been a winner for us...so maybe I'm wrong about him.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:47 pm

#WeAreUSA ?

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:00 pm

I saw it as "Together, America, we will rise". Must have missed that one...hmmm.
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
ShelC
Posts: 4834
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by ShelC » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:51 pm

Booker isn't doing anything.

User avatar
Marty [Mori Chu]
Posts: 9915
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:28 pm

Won't it sink his campaign when it comes out how he got those Instagram models pregnant? Oh wait, wrong Booker...

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:38 am

I've heard some suggest that they change the minimum age to run for President so that AOC can run. Any thoughts on this? Any thoughts on the Green New Deal?
"Our Suns are DEAD!!!"
Nate Duncan / Morten Jensen
Ben Goliver / Jake Madison
Bryan Toporek / John Karalis
Danny Leroux / Jonathan Feigen
Howard Beck / Dan Devine
Dan Favale / Andy Bailey
Coach Nick / Jared Weiss
Marc Jiang / David Aldridge

User avatar
Cap
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Cap » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:13 am

In2ition wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:38 am
I've heard some suggest that they change the minimum age to run for President so that AOC can run. Any thoughts on this? Any thoughts on the Green New Deal?
It would require a Consitituional Amendment to change, so forget it.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 2277
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Nodack » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am

I don’t think she has enough support to run for President even if she qualified.

I haven’t studied her green plan at all. I just hear bits and pieces from the peanut gallery. I heard she wants to do away with all airplanes and only use trains across the ocean? I have a feeling some people are interpreting her not quite so accurately. She does come across as a young naive person who thinks they have all the answers when they don’t. Her views seem to be left of center by a ways. I am more moderate. I just wish we could all work together better as a nation but, I know that is impossible since we are at war with each other.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:36 am

In2ition wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:38 am
I've heard some suggest that they change the minimum age to run for President so that AOC can run. Any thoughts on this? Any thoughts on the Green New Deal?
I am really curious who is actually suggesting an amendment to the Constitution so she can run.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm

Re: Democratic primary watch

Post by Indy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:13 pm

Nodack wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
I haven’t studied her green plan at all. I just hear bits and pieces from the peanut gallery. I heard she wants to do away with all airplanes and only use trains across the ocean? I have a feeling some people are interpreting her not quite so accurately. She does come across as a young naive person who thinks they have all the answers when they don’t. Her views seem to be left of center by a ways. I am more moderate. I just wish we could all work together better as a nation but, I know that is impossible since we are at war with each other.
Here is the link to the actual documentation for it. It is very short for a bill, which means there are nearly no details in it. Basically it says we should strive to reduce green house emissions, ensure clean water, and do so by investing in upgraded infrastructure across the US (thereby creating a lot of jobs). It all sounds good, but there are no details on how it would happen... As for the trains, it does say we should have better mass transit, including high speed trains. But unless I missed it, there is nothing about building train tracks across the Atlantic Ocean.

https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/sites/o ... 20Deal.pdf

Post Reply