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Impeachment
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:24 pm
by Mori Chu
Okay, let's talk about it. Should the Democrats in the House move forward with an impeachment process for President Trump? One could argue that they should wait for Mueller's conclusion and report. One could also argue that Trump has already done enough bad stuff that is known to the public to merit immediate impeachment proceedings.
The Atlantic had a piece arguing for beginning the process immediately. I found it interesting:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/580468/
What do you think? I generally think they should wait for Mueller, though I guess that depends on the assumption that he will wrap things up somewhat quickly.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:37 am
by Nodack
The House would vote and pass impeachment proceediing fairly easily I think. Republicans own the Senate and they will have to vote in favor of impeachment too. I can’t see that happening unless Muellers evidence proves without a shadow of doubt that Trump is a russian puppet.
Do I want him impeached? Yes.
Do I think he is guilty of conspiring with Russia? Yes.
The articles and documentaries I have seen show that Trump has been in business with the Russian mafia/Putin since the 80’s laundering money through Trump Towers. They loaned him money for his golf courses. He obviously deeply respects Putin or Putin owns him somehow judging by his actions in protecting Putin. Trump refused to enact sanctions on Russia that a unanimous Congress voted to do. He takes Putins word over his own intelligence community in front of the world in Helsinki. Now he is trying to lift sanctions on his Russian friend/Oligarch and the GOP is going along with it. Trump makes Russian propaganda statements out of the blue like his condemnation of Montenegro, who is at odds with Russia.
Trump clearly has most of the Senate in his back pocket.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:54 am
by Mori Chu
Wow. This is a bombshell:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ja ... estigation
Donald Trump told Michael Cohen specifically to lie to Congress under oath in sworn testimony about his Trump Tower Moscow project. This is subornation of perjury and is a felony. It is an impeachable offense in itself. Huge story.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:46 am
by Flagrant Fowl
What’s the impeachment endgame?
Pence is likely just as guilty if only because he’s known about all of this and did nothing to stop it, but that’s not enough to move him out as well.
I guess the biggest positive is that an impeachment would eliminate Trump from re-election, which is certainly still possible despite him being neck deep in shit.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:48 am
by Indy
There is no way half of the GOP senators would support impeaching him. Even if he did shoot a guy on 5th Avenue.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:26 am
by Cap
Their rationalizations are predictable enough. Clinton didn’t get removed from office for perjury, so it would be “unfair” to remove Trump after subornation of perjury.
Just like they say it’s “hypocrtical” for people with walls around their homes not to support a border wall. A wall is a wall is a wall, and perjury is perjury is perjury.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:46 am
by Indy
I think the rationalizations are "actually, I have more power if he is in office than if he isn't." But I agree their arguments will be what you said. And that only changes if Trump's approval rating dips below 50% with republican voters. Right now it is still at 85% (which is mind blowing).
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am
by In2ition
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:54 am
Wow. This is a bombshell:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ja ... estigation
Donald Trump told Michael Cohen specifically to lie to Congress under oath in sworn testimony about his Trump Tower Moscow project. This is subornation of perjury and is a felony. It is an impeachable offense in itself. Huge story.
I'm going to take a wait and see approach.
1. Is Buzzfeed an actual reputable news source?
2. No documentary evidence for supposed directive is provided
3. BuzzFeed sources are all 100% anonymous
4. Michael Cohen is a serial liar
5. It is not illegal to do business in Russia
6. Moscow Trump Tower project never got off the ground
7. Jason Leopold, who reported story, is a "serial fabulist". Columbia Journalism Review: "caught making stuff up in a 2002 Salon article, self-admittedly 'getting it completely wrong' ... & had his own memoir cancelled because of concerns over accuracy."
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:00 am
by ShelC
Also consider that remaining President may be one of Trump's best moves. If Rs won't impeach and he won't resign, there'd be a legal battle to indict a sitting President.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:42 am
by Mori Chu
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am
I'm going to take a wait and see approach.
1. Is Buzzfeed an actual reputable news source?
2. No documentary evidence for supposed directive is provided
3. BuzzFeed sources are all 100% anonymous
4. Michael Cohen is a serial liar
5. It is not illegal to do business in Russia
6. Moscow Trump Tower project never got off the ground
7. Jason Leopold, who reported story, is a "serial fabulist". Columbia Journalism Review: "caught making stuff up in a 2002 Salon article, self-admittedly 'getting it completely wrong' ... & had his own memoir cancelled because of concerns over accuracy."
It's fine to wait and see. But I do want to point out that Michael Cohen is not the source for this article; it comes from two anonymous intel community sources who claim it is based on evidence such as emails, texts, and other data, not based on Michael Cohen's word. And while yes, it is not illegal to do business in Russia, it is illegal to lie to Congress about your business in sworn testimony, and it is illegal to order others to do so when you are President of the United States.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 am
by Mori Chu
I should also note that Kellyanne Conway, as well as another White House spokesman, steadfastly refused to deny these allegations today during on-camera interviews. They were asked in no uncertain terms, did the President order Michael Cohen to lie to Congress? And they would not say, "no."
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:54 am
by Cap
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:42 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am
I'm going to take a wait and see approach.
1. Is Buzzfeed an actual reputable news source?
2. No documentary evidence for supposed directive is provided
3. BuzzFeed sources are all 100% anonymous
4. Michael Cohen is a serial liar
5. It is not illegal to do business in Russia
6. Moscow Trump Tower project never got off the ground
7. Jason Leopold, who reported story, is a "serial fabulist". Columbia Journalism Review: "caught making stuff up in a 2002 Salon article, self-admittedly 'getting it completely wrong' ... & had his own memoir cancelled because of concerns over accuracy."
It's fine to wait and see. But I do want to point out that Michael Cohen is not the source for this article; it comes from two anonymous intel community sources who claim it is based on evidence such as emails, texts, and other data, not based on Michael Cohen's word. And while yes, it is not illegal to do business in Russia, it is illegal to lie to Congress about your business in sworn testimony, and it is illegal to order others to do so when you are President of the United States.
If the allegation is true, this isn't just any perjury. This is undermining a Congressional investigation into a potential threat to national security.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 am
by Indy
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:42 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am
I'm going to take a wait and see approach.
1. Is Buzzfeed an actual reputable news source?
2. No documentary evidence for supposed directive is provided
3. BuzzFeed sources are all 100% anonymous
4. Michael Cohen is a serial liar
5. It is not illegal to do business in Russia
6. Moscow Trump Tower project never got off the ground
7. Jason Leopold, who reported story, is a "serial fabulist". Columbia Journalism Review: "caught making stuff up in a 2002 Salon article, self-admittedly 'getting it completely wrong' ... & had his own memoir cancelled because of concerns over accuracy."
It's fine to wait and see. But I do want to point out that Michael Cohen is not the source for this article; it comes from two anonymous intel community sources who claim it is based on evidence such as emails, texts, and other data, not based on Michael Cohen's word. And while yes, it is not illegal to do business in Russia, it is illegal to lie to Congress about your business in sworn testimony, and
it is illegal to order others to do so when you are President of the United States.
I don't think it matters if you are POTUS or not.
Also, In2, if you are going to just repost people's tweets on here, use the twitter function so we know who is saying it.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:01 am
by Nodack
What if Trump has been laundering money for the Russian mafia/Putin since the 80’s. Is that legal? What if the Russian mafia/Putin did finance Trumps golf courses etc and Trump owes them? Is it ok for a US President to be comprimised in that way? If Trump was resisting sanctions, promoting Russian propaganda, ignoring US intelligence and taking Putins word on Russia because they have him over a barrel is that OK?
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:09 am
by Indy
Nodack wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:01 am
What if Trump has been laundering money for the Russian mafia/Putin since the 80’s. Is that legal? What if the Russian mafia/Putin did finance Trumps golf courses etc and Trump owes them? Is it ok for a US President to be comprimised in that way? If Trump was resisting sanctions, promoting Russian propaganda, ignoring US intelligence and taking Putins word on Russia because they have him over a barrel is that OK?
First, money laundering is illegal.
Second, if the rest were true, he couldn't fulfill the duties in his oath of office.
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:39 am
by In2ition
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:42 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am
I'm going to take a wait and see approach.
1. Is Buzzfeed an actual reputable news source?
2. No documentary evidence for supposed directive is provided
3. BuzzFeed sources are all 100% anonymous
4. Michael Cohen is a serial liar
5. It is not illegal to do business in Russia
6. Moscow Trump Tower project never got off the ground
7. Jason Leopold, who reported story, is a "serial fabulist". Columbia Journalism Review: "caught making stuff up in a 2002 Salon article, self-admittedly 'getting it completely wrong' ... & had his own memoir cancelled because of concerns over accuracy."
It's fine to wait and see. But I do want to point out that Michael Cohen is not the source for this article; it comes from two anonymous intel community sources who claim it is based on evidence such as emails, texts, and other data, not based on Michael Cohen's word. And while yes, it is not illegal to do business in Russia, it is illegal to lie to Congress about your business in sworn testimony, and
it is illegal to order others to do so when you are President of the United States.
I don't think it matters if you are POTUS or not.
Also, In2, if you are going to just repost people's tweets on here, use the twitter function so we know who is saying it.
Noted
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:41 am
by In2ition
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:45 pm
by Indy
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:47 pm
by Indy
That is a really interesting way of wording a refute of the story. Lots of qualifiers. And when is the last time you heard anyone from that team publicly comment on anything?
Re: Impeachment
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:36 pm
by Mori Chu
Link to NYT story expressing doubt about some details of the Buzzfeed story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/us/p ... e=Homepage