Impeachment

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Mori Chu
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Mori Chu » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:54 am

I just keep getting more and more depressed about this impeachment trial. They have all these polls where 75% or more of people want them to have a real trial and call witnesses and look at evidence. But McConnell and the GOP Senators don't care.

The moving of the goal posts here is striking. A few months ago, it was "No quid pro quo!" over and over. It was all the President said. Then they release a call summary where Trump himself makes very clear that there is a quid pro quo (case over, right?!?!). Then multiple government officials testified under oath that yes, there was a quid pro quo. The goal posts move; now they say, "There's no first-hand evidence of a quid pro quo!" And meanwhile they block anybody from testifying who WOULD have such first-hand evidence. Now Bolton makes clear that he was there first-hand and that there was a quid pro quo. So the goal posts move again. Now the argument is, "Yeah, there was a quid pro quo. So what?"

Now you have Trump's lawyers and Dershowitz arguing that the President can do essentially anything he wants, so long as he deems it in the national interest. You can invite foreign interference; you can investigate your enemies and opponents; you can cover up wrongdoing; you can deny funds to allies that were voted for approval by Congress. If this is accepted as a precedent, the President would have almost complete immunity from the law and from the impeachment process. There would be essentially no accountability for the chief executive. In short, we'd have a dictatorship, a complete abandonment of our constitution and democracy.

I really think we're witnessing the fall of America. It's just about time to look for jobs in other countries and leave. If this is allowed to stand with no repercussions, what is to stop Trump from completely cheating in the 2020 election? Will we ever have a free and fair election in this country again, with a legitimate result?

Why are millions of people in the country seemingly just fine with this? Why aren't people marching in the streets? This is mass outrage, national protest level stuff. Will anything get the citizens to rise up and say enough is enough?

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:19 am

Well, the way the senate is set up, you only need 17 states to be in favor of letting a president do whatever they want, coupled with the DOJ letter that says you can't charge a sitting president with a crime. So based on the least populated states, you only need 50.1% of those people to support their Senators. That means with just 3.75% of the US population supporting the decision, in the right states, it won't matter.

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Cap
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Cap » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:31 pm

Mori Chu wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:54 am
Now you have Trump's lawyers and Dershowitz arguing that the President can do essentially anything he wants, so long as he deems it in the national interest.
And specifically that if he deems his re-election in the national interest, he can do anything he wants toward that end. I wonder why Nixon never thought of that argument.
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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:40 pm

I guess Republicans didn’t think ahead to what if a Democrat gets in the WH and decides he can do whatever he wants? We are setting the precedent that Presidents are Kings and they won’t be able to stop the next Dem President. Republicans already said it was ok to break any laws he wants with total immunity.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Mori Chu » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:58 pm

I think the plan is never to let the Dems win another election, by any means necessary.

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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:11 pm

History says otherwise. America always grows tired of one party and President after awhile. The economy will turn as it always does and America will blame whoever is in power and always choose the other side.

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3rdside
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Re: Impeachment

Post by 3rdside » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:48 pm

Nodack wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:11 pm
History says otherwise. America always grows tired of one party and President after awhile. The economy will turn as it always does and America will blame whoever is in power and always choose the other side.
I hope I don't sound conceited but I think Marty is right .. If he gets through this trial and the election, which my guess is he will barring a sharp recession, then gloves are off - it's total corruption of institutions time and Trump consolidates power until he dies, or passes it on to his daughter.

Not my words, but Gary Kasparov's - former chess world champion, IQ190, exiled from Russia also, so knows first hand what he's talking about the rise of dictators i.e. Putin.

He's worth following on twitter if not doing so already, or read this for a recent view from him ... it's not particularly pretty:

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/01/2 ... top-trump/

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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:24 am

Rise of dictators in other countries. Not the US. Before any of that happened there would be stiff resistance I would hope. We Americans are good at large protests when motivated.

It is looking like Republicans “convinced” those who were going to vote for witnesses yesterday to change their mind, giving Republicans enough votes to skip witnesses and go right to the vote to acquit. Trump is already working on his “Totally exonerated!” speech and will claim victory.

I was thinking. Trump was willing to go to great lengths just to smear Biden with some bad press. Suppose he was 100% successful and nobody ever found out? The Ukraine would have announced an investigation into the Bidens and weren’t even expected to follow up with a real investigation. They just needed to announce it publicly. Would that have doomed him like Hillary?

How much bad press is the impeachment for Trump? He was impeached in the House. That is some pretty bad press. The evidence and 17 witnesses proved the case convincingly to me. He obstructed everything he could and bragged about it. Lev Parnus, Bolton came into the picture late but, hurt Trumps case even more. 70 something % of Americans wanted to see evidence and witnesses. Some Republicans conceded that Trump was guilty. They just didn’t think what he did was that bad of a thing.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) also announced that he would oppose the effort to allow new witnesses.

"There is no need for more evidence to prove something that has already been proven...


Then he went on to say that what Trump was accused of wasn’t impeachable therefore he is voting against witnesses.

My point is that a steady stream of evidence keeps coming in proving Trump was guilty. We all know the Senate isn’t going vote to convict him. The big question is how big a price do they pay for this whitewash? Just announcing an investigation into Biden was what Trump wanted. He didn’t get it and instead has just gotten some really bad press. Now there is still a trickle of evidence and witnesses coming in. Lev Parnas isn’t done. Boltons book will come out in the future and I assume before the next election in nine months.

How much does this hurt or help Trump and Republicans?

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Mori Chu
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Mori Chu » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 am

RIP USA, 1776 - 2020

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:24 am

Mori Chu wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 am
RIP USA, 1776 - 2020
Considering we were the land of the white male land owners for the first 150 years, and then land of the corporations since Citizens United, the epitaph should probably read 1920-2010. But I get your point.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Impeachment

Post by virtual9mm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:06 am

Marty is right. But don't lose hope yet, something.of a miracle election could still.come about.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:11 am

virtual9mm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:06 am
Marty is right. But don't lose hope yet, something.of a miracle election could still.come about.
I am not sure even a miracle election will help. SCOTUS is locked up for quite a while, and so are literally hundreds of judges around the country that are appointed for life and were bought and paid for because of CU.

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3rdside
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Re: Impeachment

Post by 3rdside » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:01 am

Nodack wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:24 am
Rise of dictators in other countries. Not the US. Before any of that happened there would be stiff resistance I would hope. We Americans are good at large protests when motivated.

It is looking like Republicans “convinced” those who were going to vote for witnesses yesterday to change their mind, giving Republicans enough votes to skip witnesses and go right to the vote to acquit. Trump is already working on his “Totally exonerated!” speech and will claim victory.

I was thinking. Trump was willing to go to great lengths just to smear Biden with some bad press. Suppose he was 100% successful and nobody ever found out? The Ukraine would have announced an investigation into the Bidens and weren’t even expected to follow up with a real investigation. They just needed to announce it publicly. Would that have doomed him like Hillary?

How much bad press is the impeachment for Trump? He was impeached in the House. That is some pretty bad press. The evidence and 17 witnesses proved the case convincingly to me. He obstructed everything he could and bragged about it. Lev Parnus, Bolton came into the picture late but, hurt Trumps case even more. 70 something % of Americans wanted to see evidence and witnesses. Some Republicans conceded that Trump was guilty. They just didn’t think what he did was that bad of a thing.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) also announced that he would oppose the effort to allow new witnesses.

"There is no need for more evidence to prove something that has already been proven...


Then he went on to say that what Trump was accused of wasn’t impeachable therefore he is voting against witnesses.

My point is that a steady stream of evidence keeps coming in proving Trump was guilty. We all know the Senate isn’t going vote to convict him. The big question is how big a price do they pay for this whitewash? Just announcing an investigation into Biden was what Trump wanted. He didn’t get it and instead has just gotten some really bad press. Now there is still a trickle of evidence and witnesses coming in. Lev Parnas isn’t done. Boltons book will come out in the future and I assume before the next election in nine months.

How much does this hurt or help Trump and Republicans?
Trump's had Russia, the Mueller report and now Ukraine all go in his favour .. even if more bad press comes out he just further's the witch hunt narrative that's now got even more weight behind it. The majority of the country doesn't do detail, just headlines, and they're enough in favour of Trump .. at this stage anyway.

Between more evidence, a sharp stock market crash / recession, possibly some revenge plotting from Iran and, dare I say it, his assassination (I have thought about taking one for the team! Just kidding, but I'm sure there's a deranged enough antifa out there to do it..) there's still a few things that might see a Dem win in 2020 or, failing that, majorities in congress.

But say he does win - what would people immediately protest if he's just been given the public mandate for 4 years? And beyond that he's proven he can get away with line ball behaviour; the longer he's in power, the more he can push that line behind the scenes without ever triggering protests ..

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virtual9mm
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Re: Impeachment

Post by virtual9mm » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:14 am

3rdside wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:01 am
Nodack wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:24 am
Rise of dictators in other countries. Not the US. Before any of that happened there would be stiff resistance I would hope. We Americans are good at large protests when motivated.

It is looking like Republicans “convinced” those who were going to vote for witnesses yesterday to change their mind, giving Republicans enough votes to skip witnesses and go right to the vote to acquit. Trump is already working on his “Totally exonerated!” speech and will claim victory.

I was thinking. Trump was willing to go to great lengths just to smear Biden with some bad press. Suppose he was 100% successful and nobody ever found out? The Ukraine would have announced an investigation into the Bidens and weren’t even expected to follow up with a real investigation. They just needed to announce it publicly. Would that have doomed him like Hillary?

How much bad press is the impeachment for Trump? He was impeached in the House. That is some pretty bad press. The evidence and 17 witnesses proved the case convincingly to me. He obstructed everything he could and bragged about it. Lev Parnus, Bolton came into the picture late but, hurt Trumps case even more. 70 something % of Americans wanted to see evidence and witnesses. Some Republicans conceded that Trump was guilty. They just didn’t think what he did was that bad of a thing.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) also announced that he would oppose the effort to allow new witnesses.

"There is no need for more evidence to prove something that has already been proven...


Then he went on to say that what Trump was accused of wasn’t impeachable therefore he is voting against witnesses.

My point is that a steady stream of evidence keeps coming in proving Trump was guilty. We all know the Senate isn’t going vote to convict him. The big question is how big a price do they pay for this whitewash? Just announcing an investigation into Biden was what Trump wanted. He didn’t get it and instead has just gotten some really bad press. Now there is still a trickle of evidence and witnesses coming in. Lev Parnas isn’t done. Boltons book will come out in the future and I assume before the next election in nine months.

How much does this hurt or help Trump and Republicans?
Trump's had Russia, the Mueller report and now Ukraine all go in his favour .. even if more bad press comes out he just further's the witch hunt narrative that's now got even more weight behind it. The majority of the country doesn't do detail, just headlines, and they're enough in favour of Trump .. at this stage anyway.

Between more evidence, a sharp stock market crash / recession, possibly some revenge plotting from Iran and, dare I say it, his assassination (I have thought about taking one for the team! Just kidding, but I'm sure there's a deranged enough antifa out there to do it..) there's still a few things that might see a Dem win in 2020 or, failing that, majorities in congress.

But say he does win - what would people immediately protest if he's just been given the public mandate for 4 years? And beyond that he's proven he can get away with line ball behaviour; the longer he's in power, the more he can push that line behind the scenes without ever triggering protests ..
Nothing would surprise me at this point. Absolutely nothing. I just want society to hold itself together -- it's starting to look like a Yugoslavia scenario. Both Yugoslavia and Syria were remarkably stable scenarios just 9 months before a full-fledged civil war.

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3rdside
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Re: Impeachment

Post by 3rdside » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:57 am

Worrying times.

We've got plenty of our own issues in the UK as Brexit is, on paper, a total sh*t show lead by another populist in Boris Johnson, yet here we are. The one takeaway from our recent election, a very loose proxy for Brexit as we never had a second (or qualifying) referendum, is that the left got absolutely hammered.

Meaning an 'extreme left' candidate probably isn't going to win against trump.

I like Bernie a lot (and only in America would his policies be thought of as extreme) but I fear Trump and Fox News will scream communism and he'll be toast.

Warren I like the most (actually any of her, Bernie or Yang are cool) - she's a 'rules' lady and i like that ("no ones saying you can't be a billionaire, but just do it fairly") but same fears exists, and in populist times, strong men are perceived better than 'weak' ladies.
Last edited by 3rdside on Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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3rdside
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Re: Impeachment

Post by 3rdside » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:13 am

Reading an article about Michael Bloomberg who's just bombed Trump : "fake hair, obese and spray on tan".

His adviser too: "all that's inside his head is a putter, cheeseburgers, a porn video and somebody else's credit card".

Avenatti may be right, that to beat Trump you need the same gutter tactics - and a mega advertising budget - so maybe Bloomberg's the guy.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Impeachment

Post by virtual9mm » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:26 am

3rdside wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:13 am
Reading an article about Michael Bloomberg who's just bombed Trump : "fake hair, obese and spray on tan".

His adviser too: "all that's inside his head is a putter, cheeseburgers, a porn video and somebody else's credit card".

Avenatti may be right, that to beat Trump you need the same gutter tactics - and a mega advertising budget - so maybe Bloomberg's the guy.
It was interesting to see Trump gear up to fight...not Biden...but rather, Bloomberg.

What I do respect about the guy is that he's committed to funding anti-Trump ads regardless who comes out of the primary.

Regarding Brexit -- I don't think that this is the end -- I think that the UK will end up losing Scotland and Northern Ireland, too. Down to Little England and Wales.

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Cap
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Cap » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:39 am

virtual9mm wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:26 am
Regarding Brexit -- I don't think that this is the end -- I think that the UK will end up losing Scotland and Northern Ireland, too. Down to Little England and Wales.
Eventually the UK will just be the K.
JJ will be better than KP when all is said and done [in 2020]. Mark it. — AIG, with Indy betting against

My [2019-20] prediction is better than mid 30s... mark it down! — Superbone

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Mori Chu
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Mori Chu » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:27 am

3rdside wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:13 am
Avenatti may be right, that to beat Trump you need the same gutter tactics - and a mega advertising budget - so maybe Bloomberg's the guy.
I see the argument for such tactics, but ultimately I think it's a bad idea. The thing you don't want to do is get independent voters thinking, "They're all the same," or, "The Dems are just as lewd and rude and awful as Trump." You call Trump out for his awfulness and run on a different vision for the future of the country, not devolving to become just like him.

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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:20 pm

Somebody sent this to me and I thought it was pretty funny.


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