Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

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In2ition
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Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:24 am

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/an ... 6936751a47

This seems to have not gotten enough if any coverage here. This allows the mother to terminate the pregnancy up to birth to save the mother.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:29 am

I haven't read the bill, just the quick summaries people provide. In general, I don't think people should have to carry an unviable fetus to term, or even viable ones if the life of the mother is in jeopardy. That law doesn't seem to crazy to me, so I find it odd that the article quoted the opponents by saying it was extreme.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:32 am

I'm sure it was their way of balancing the story by giving an opposing view of the bill.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:59 am

I thought they could only terminate the baby that late if it was not going to survive or was endangering the mother's life. I support late abortion in such cases. In2, do you think women should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if the child is not viable or endangers her life? I know this is a touchy subject; my wife is strongly anti-abortion and she and I just have to agree not to talk about this issue much because it is so upsetting for her.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:27 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:59 am
I thought they could only terminate the baby that late if it was not going to survive or was endangering the mother's life. I support late abortion in such cases. In2, do you think women should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if the child is not viable or endangers her life? I know this is a touchy subject; my wife is strongly anti-abortion and she and I just have to agree not to talk about this issue much because it is so upsetting for her.
It's interesting that you used the term "terminate the baby" or called the fetus a "child" when describing this. I haven't given my opinion on this yet.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Indy » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:18 pm

What is interesting about that? I think most people call a fetus a baby. I think technically it is a fetus until born, and then a baby. But I think most people use them interchangeably.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:55 pm

If you call the fetus a child or baby it humanizes something you may want the option to sentence to death(terminate the pregnancy of). It makes a life and something of worth and value. In many cases, not all, the fetus is then an inocent life and worth protecting from when they can't protect themselves. Using terms that doesn't humanize it gives more credence to it being just a part of the woman's body and easily discarded by choice for whatever reason desired. Those are not terms used a lot by pro choice crowd. Just like they use the term Pro-Choice and not Pro-Abortion or the opposite of Pro-Life, Anti-Life. Like Pro-Lifers don't use the term Anti-Choice to describe themselves.

Isn't that the crux of most of the issue? When is the embryo or fetus considered life worth protecting? We wouldn't consider terminating the life of an infant because the child was born from a rape victim or because they can't afford to be a mother or father, or any legitimate reason you can think of for not having a child.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Nodack » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:55 pm

This argument has been going on long before we were born. Sort of like the chicken or the egg.

Sperm is alive. If we don’t release it into an egg are we committing murder? That is a very extreme way of thinking about it, but you can take it all as far as you want. Is it the point where the sperm penetrates the egg? For me I think when a fetus has developed a conscience or is self aware, that is the red line in the sand between aborting and not. How do we know when that has happened? Good question. I am pro letting the mother decide up to a certain point.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:00 pm

I think the focus on "alive" and "life" is a red herring. Anti-abortion / pro-life folks argue that the fetus is alive; pro-abortion / pro-choice folks argue that it isn't alive until it's born. To me this is splitting hairs and focusing on the wrong thing. Though I am pro-choice, I concede the point: Of course it's alive as a fetus. It's alive as a sperm and an egg; it's alive the whole time. As Nodack says, all the tissue in your body is alive. Living cells and living things are all around us; that doesn't mean they have to be carried to term and raised as human children. I am strongly pro-abortion because I don't think it is good for society to force women to have children who they don't want and who won't be loved. We have an overpopulated country and world, and I don't think the world needs any more unwanted babies. I also don't think adoption works for a variety of reasons.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:02 pm

Continuing, I think Roe v Wade is the right decision (letting women choose if they want to have an abortion) and I think it is good that states are passing affirmative laws making the woman's right to abortion very clear and unambiguous in case Trump's Supreme Court decides to try to invalidate or overturn Roe v Wade. I respect the anti-abortion side, but this is not the majority opinion any more. Women want the right to choose and want control over their own bodies and pregnancies. IMO the pro-lifers / anti-abortion folks need to reconcile the fact that their view is not the majority view and is not close to being the majority view. And it is unlikely to ever return to being so.

If pro-lifers honestly want to minimize the number of abortions that occur in the US, the way to do that is not to try to overturn Roe v Wade. The way is by doing things such as:

- letting Planned Parenthood help women with teaching them about sexual health, safe sex, birth control / contraception, and avoiding unwanted pregnancies

- free condoms for everybody who wants them

- free birth control for anybody who needs it

- better health care for women

- fund adoption centers, more tax $$$, more donations

- less poverty

- better, non-abstincence-only and non-faith-based, sex ed for teens to help them understand how to avoid unwanted pregnancies

All of the above would contribute mightily to reducing abortion in this country. If that's what pro-lifers truly want, they should accept some taxation and governmental increase to do so.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Nodack » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:26 pm

IMO the pro-lifers / anti-abortion folks need to reconcile the fact that their view is not the majority view and is not close to being the majority view. And it is unlikely to ever return to being so.
I think we all should agree to disagree. Every woman in the US has the choice to do what they think is right with their own bodies. The pro lifers can keep their babies and the pro choice women can decide for themselves. Not perfect but all sides get what they want.

Some religions are against birth control of any kind. Some religious people fight to keep employees in their companies from having free access to borth control because they don’t believe in it. Once again I say we are all free to choose our own fates. Laws preventing people from getting birth control are stupid imo. Let your employees decide for themselves. You aren’t god. You are their boss but bosses should stay out of our bedrooms.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:07 pm

Nodack wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:26 pm
IMO the pro-lifers / anti-abortion folks need to reconcile the fact that their view is not the majority view and is not close to being the majority view. And it is unlikely to ever return to being so.
I think we all should agree to disagree. Every woman in the US has the choice to do what they think is right with their own bodies. The pro lifers can keep their babies and the pro choice women can decide for themselves. Not perfect but all sides get what they want.

Some religions are against birth control of any kind. Some religious people fight to keep employees in their companies from having free access to borth control because they don’t believe in it. Once again I say we are all free to choose our own fates. Laws preventing people from getting birth control are stupid imo. Let your employees decide for themselves. You aren’t god. You are their boss but bosses should stay out of our bedrooms.
Yes, I think that is fair. My post comes off a bit glib; I don't mean that anti-abortion folks should decide to love abortion, which clearly they find upsetting and bad. I mean that they should accept that others do not agree and that anti-abortion folks are in the minority. The minority in this case can certainly abide by their own preferences and not ever get abortions. But they are in no position to force such behavior on everyone in the country.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:39 pm

IMO, this doesn't sound very good at all, but I don't want to jump to conclusions, since Governor Northam is a Pediatric Neurologist. What do you guys think this sounds like?

https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1090657473218920448

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:55 pm

I believe Northam is speaking about fetuses with terminal illnesses, nonviable fetuses, or severe genetic abnormalities, where the woman and her physician have determined that the baby will not survive. I support the legality of deciding to abort such fetuses at any point in the pregnancy.

I haven't read a ton about it, but the Virginia law is somewhat permissive and doesn't contain a ton of clauses about proving that the child is terminally ill before the abortion will be performed. I believe the rationale here is that no woman would want to terminate her child this late in her pregnancy if it were otherwise healthy, and that therefore no such restriction is needed by the law.

My general take on this is that Republicans cheering on the demise of Roe v Wade should be careful what they wish for. If you overturn Roe, each state will do whatever it wants on abortion, which probably means that many states will pass laws like VA's that are more lenient than Roe.

If you dislike abortion and really want to reduce and minimize the number of aborted babies in the US per year, you should support lots of funding for adoption agencies, lots of free and easily available birth control, free condoms, free and high-quality sex ed, counseling for women who discover they are pregnant. And most of all, lots of funding for Planned Parenthood, which provides all of these (other than directly providing any adoption service). The demonization of Planned Parenthood is misguided and wrong.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Cap » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:08 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:55 pm
My general take on this is that Republicans cheering on the demise of Roe v Wade should be careful what they wish for. If you overturn Roe, each state will do whatever it wants on abortion, which probably means that many states will pass laws like VA's that are more lenient than Roe.
That would depend on the grounds on which it is overturned. If the Court determines that a fetus is a person entitled to equal protection under the law, it could impose severe restrictions on what a state is allowed to permit.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:48 pm

This looks bad for Northam. They say his college yearbook has racist stuff written in it. Story just breaking.

https://pilotonline.com/news/government ... 09b50.html

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 pm

Do you think it's a dangerous trend to imply racism to someone when things happened 35 years ago?
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:27 pm

In2ition wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 pm
Do you think it's a dangerous trend to imply racism to someone when things happened 35 years ago?
Blackface and KKK costumes were unacceptable 35 years ago and they're even worse now. Not everything is about "winning"; it's about right and wrong.
A major difference between the two parties is that we Democrats don't put up with this kind of stuff from our elected officials. Northam should resign.

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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:32 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:27 pm
In2ition wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 pm
Do you think it's a dangerous trend to imply racism to someone when things happened 35 years ago?
Blackface and KKK costumes were unacceptable 35 years ago and they're even worse now. Not everything is about "winning"; it's about right and wrong.
A major difference between the two parties is that we Democrats don't put up with this kind of stuff from our elected officials. Northam should resign.
I wish I felt the same way as you when it comes to the Democrats doing the right thing all the time. We'll see how the Northam stuff pans out.
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Re: Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:46 pm

What are your counterexamples? Bill Clinton? Do you have an example from the 21st century? The Dems made Franken resign when he was accused of groping. They banished Anthony Wiener when he got caught sexting etc. John Edwards was booted in 2008 as a Presidential candidate when he got caught cheating on his ailing wife. California Democratic Party chair Eric Bauman resigned following allegations of misconduct. John Conyers also resigned when caught in scandal.

By contrast, the Republicans double down and stay in their jobs. The GOP defended Kavanaugh despite his assault. They elected Trump despite grabbing women by the p**** and every other scandal he has. They defended and almost elected Roy Moore because they wanted a Republican in a Senate seat so badly. There are other examples.

One party holds its own to a higher standard. The other party fights to the end. Party over morality, over country, over what's right.

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