Presidential Pardons

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Presidential Pardons

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Tue May 21, 2019 10:48 am

Trump plans to pardon Conrad Black, media mogul who was convicted of fraud in 2007. Black is reputedly a friend of Trump's, and he wrote a book recently called, "Donald J. Trump: A President Like No Other."

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/72384909 ... y-last-yea
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/ ... t-him.html

It is also being reported that Trump plans on Memorial Day to pardon some Navy Seals and servicemen accused of crimes. In particular he plans to pardon one Navy Seal who opened fire on innocent civilians, slit the throat of a 12-year old girl with a knife, gunned down a defenseless old man, and other atrocities. He was reported for these crimes by his fellow Seals. He had yet to stand trial; most pardons come after the person has already been found guilty.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/t ... rimes.html

Are these pardons appropriate use of the Presidential pardon power? Is this okay? What is the argument in favor of any of these pardons?

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Nodack
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Nodack » Tue May 21, 2019 11:27 am

Trump doesn’t even need a reason. He can pardon anybody he wants. It’s Trump, of course it’s not appropriate. Nothing he does is appropriate.

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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Tue May 21, 2019 12:01 pm

It is awful to pardon your friends/colleagues because they say nice things about your or give you money. It was awful with Trump, it was awful with Reagan, and Clinton and Bush 41. But what Trump is supposedly planning to do with Gallagher is atrocious. Much more so than when Bush 43 commuted the sentence for the murdering border patrol agents.

And there are literally not barriers to presidential pardons. He could arguably pardon himself.

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ShelC
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by ShelC » Tue May 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Wait til he leaves office...

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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Tue May 21, 2019 7:09 pm

ShelC wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 2:57 pm
Wait til he leaves office...
Exactly. That is when Clinton pardoned Rich (who seemingly bribed him for it), and when Bush 43 commuted the sentence for those murderers. Just think what he will do.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Wed May 22, 2019 1:04 am

They'll have to get them in state court. He'll pardon Don Jr, Jared, the whole lot of 'em.

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ShelC
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by ShelC » Wed May 22, 2019 3:07 am

He and the Rs will find a way to allow for pardons to apply to state charges. They'll either change the law or ignore it and fight it in court.

I doubt anyone in Trump's family, including Kushner, will see any jail time for anything.

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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Wed May 22, 2019 5:17 am

ShelC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:07 am
He and the Rs will find a way to allow for pardons to apply to state charges. They'll either change the law or ignore it and fight it in court.

I doubt anyone in Trump's family, including Kushner, will see any jail time for anything.
It is in the constitution, so I can't see them changing the law. But white collar, white, rich guys don't go to prison often anyway.

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ShelC
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by ShelC » Wed May 22, 2019 5:22 am

Lots of things are in the constitution yet look where we are.

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In2ition
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by In2ition » Wed May 22, 2019 7:51 am

What crimes have the family been indicted for?
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ShelC
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by ShelC » Wed May 22, 2019 9:06 am

All indications are that there are sealed indictments waiting for them from the SDNY relating to taxes, laundering, etc.

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In2ition
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by In2ition » Wed May 22, 2019 9:18 am

ShelC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:06 am
All indications are that there are sealed indictments waiting for them from the SDNY relating to taxes, laundering, etc.
How were they not indicted during the Mueller investigation?
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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Wed May 22, 2019 10:12 am

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:18 am
ShelC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:06 am
All indications are that there are sealed indictments waiting for them from the SDNY relating to taxes, laundering, etc.
How were they not indicted during the Mueller investigation?
There are 12 undisclosed items farmed out to other groups (like SDNY).

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In2ition
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by In2ition » Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 am

Indy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:12 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:18 am
ShelC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:06 am
All indications are that there are sealed indictments waiting for them from the SDNY relating to taxes, laundering, etc.
How were they not indicted during the Mueller investigation?
There are 12 undisclosed items farmed out to other groups (like SDNY).
Ok. I guess we'll wait. Why do you think they are holding out to charge them if they have dirt on them? Political timing?
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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Wed May 22, 2019 10:45 am

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 am
Indy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:12 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:18 am
ShelC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:06 am
All indications are that there are sealed indictments waiting for them from the SDNY relating to taxes, laundering, etc.
How were they not indicted during the Mueller investigation?
There are 12 undisclosed items farmed out to other groups (like SDNY).
Ok. I guess we'll wait. Why do you think they are holding out to charge them if they have dirt on them? Political timing?
I don't think the investigations are complete. If you are charging some middle of the road guy with tax evasion or even money laundering, you do that when you feel the case is pretty good. If you are charging the POTUS and/or his family, you make sure your case is air tight, all records are triple verifiable, and you have independent corroboration. That takes a lot of time and resources, and even more so when you are talking about people that actually have access to the evidence against them.

Keep in mind that if the DOJ has a standing policy that says you can't indict a sitting president, that will hold true for the SDNY or any other jurisdiction. So those cases may very well sit there (instead of at the DOJ in DC since clearly Barr was hired to stop the investigation) until he is out of office.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Wed May 22, 2019 10:52 am

In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 am
Ok. I guess we'll wait. Why do you think they are holding out to charge them if they have dirt on them? Political timing?
My understanding is that Mueller is a very by-the-books guy. His investigation was to look into conspiracy between Trump / his campaign and Russia, as well as obstruction of justice. If he found evidence of other crimes along the way, such as money laundering, fraud, etc., he felt he wasn't supposed to directly indict or try to prosecute those. He handed them off to the FBI, SDNY, or whatever was the appropriate group or jurisdiction to process them. I don't think he is calculating or trying to time something to maximize political damage to Trump. (Mueller is a lifelong Republican and no particular enemy of the GOP or Trump.) He's just trying to follow the narrow mandate that was assigned to him and his investigation.

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Indy
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Re: Presidential Pardons

Post by Indy » Wed May 22, 2019 11:34 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:52 am
In2ition wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 am
Ok. I guess we'll wait. Why do you think they are holding out to charge them if they have dirt on them? Political timing?
My understanding is that Mueller is a very by-the-books guy. His investigation was to look into conspiracy between Trump / his campaign and Russia, as well as obstruction of justice. If he found evidence of other crimes along the way, such as money laundering, fraud, etc., he felt he wasn't supposed to directly indict or try to prosecute those. He handed them off to the FBI, SDNY, or whatever was the appropriate group or jurisdiction to process them. I don't think he is calculating or trying to time something to maximize political damage to Trump. (Mueller is a lifelong Republican and no particular enemy of the GOP or Trump.) He's just trying to follow the narrow mandate that was assigned to him and his investigation.
I thought he was part of the 18 conflicted, angry democrats conspiring to conduct a witch hunt!

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