Coronavirus

Political discussion here. Any reasonable opinion is welcome, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic area, please be nice and respectful to others. No flaming or trolling, please. And please keep political commentary out of the other board areas and confine it to this area. Thanks!
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Nodack
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Nodack »

More people you know in your sphere have died from the vaccine than the virus? That’s incredibly unlucky odds.

196,000,000 Americans are fully vaccinated.
38,000,000 Americans have been infected by Covid.
600,000 Americans have died from Covid.
7,000 deaths reported to VAERS

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/sc ... -they-seem

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination.

The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified.

Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)

However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.

Opponents of vaccination use the VAERS numbers in statements that suggest cause-and-effect conclusions. This misinformation then influences some people not to be vaccinated.

In this case, the numbers are correct, but the presumed conclusions are not.

Stevan Whitt, MD, an infectious disease doctor and chief clinical officer at MU Health Care, gets questions about these claims regularly, and he wants people to have the right information.

“This intentional misrepresentation is a powerful tactic to sow confusion among large groups of people,” Whitt said.

To address the misinformation about VAERS, the CDC shares context around adverse events associated with the COVID-19 vaccines and emphasizes that reports of deaths (and other adverse events) do not necessarily mean the vaccines are to blame. “A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines,” the CDC notes.

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Split T
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:03 am
Split T wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:27 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:05 am
Tell that to those loved ones that lost a family member or friend to a vaccine death. Ridiculous.
It’s awful anytime someone loses their life unexpectedly but you have to look at the bigger picture. We are having 1000’s of people die daily from the covid virus. Even if you take an extreme stance, I don’t think anyone is saying the vaccine is killing people by the 1000’s each day. It’s incredibly small numbers of people. Yes those deaths are tragic and it’s incredibly sad, but you shouldn’t make decisions based on them. It’s like hearing a story about a guy who died in a car wreck because they got strangled by their seat belt and deciding to never wear a seat belt again.
It's not as incredibly small as you guys think. I know more people in my sphere that have suffered and even died of the vaccine than of the virus. I know it's anecdotal, but didn't we just have a story posted by AIG from azcentral that was anecdotal? How come you didn't say something then?
Who do you know that has died of the vaccine? And I’m not really sure what you’re referring to with AIG, I don’t come in here very often so I miss most of the stuff posted.

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Indy
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:02 am
More people you know in your sphere have died from the vaccine than the virus? That’s incredibly unlucky odds.

196,000,000 Americans are fully vaccinated.
38,000,000 Americans have been infected by Covid.
600,000 Americans have died from Covid.
7,000 deaths reported to VAERS

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/sc ... -they-seem

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination.

The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified.

Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)

However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.

Opponents of vaccination use the VAERS numbers in statements that suggest cause-and-effect conclusions. This misinformation then influences some people not to be vaccinated.

In this case, the numbers are correct, but the presumed conclusions are not.

Stevan Whitt, MD, an infectious disease doctor and chief clinical officer at MU Health Care, gets questions about these claims regularly, and he wants people to have the right information.

“This intentional misrepresentation is a powerful tactic to sow confusion among large groups of people,” Whitt said.

To address the misinformation about VAERS, the CDC shares context around adverse events associated with the COVID-19 vaccines and emphasizes that reports of deaths (and other adverse events) do not necessarily mean the vaccines are to blame. “A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines,” the CDC notes.
This is the key part. When you file adverse event reports (whether it be pharma or med devices) it is simply "this happened" without any assessment as to the cause of the issue. I have had to file adverse event reports for people that died as the result of a car accident, but had devices used on them during treatment. Obviously the blood oxygen sensor or the defibrillator or the intubation tube didn't kill them, but you still have to report it.

The report I read that actually looked at deaths attributed to vaccine reactions (or just possible reactions) was in the single digits for the US.

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:11 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:03 am
Split T wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:27 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:05 am
Tell that to those loved ones that lost a family member or friend to a vaccine death. Ridiculous.
It’s awful anytime someone loses their life unexpectedly but you have to look at the bigger picture. We are having 1000’s of people die daily from the covid virus. Even if you take an extreme stance, I don’t think anyone is saying the vaccine is killing people by the 1000’s each day. It’s incredibly small numbers of people. Yes those deaths are tragic and it’s incredibly sad, but you shouldn’t make decisions based on them. It’s like hearing a story about a guy who died in a car wreck because they got strangled by their seat belt and deciding to never wear a seat belt again.
It's not as incredibly small as you guys think. I know more people in my sphere that have suffered and even died of the vaccine than of the virus. I know it's anecdotal, but didn't we just have a story posted by AIG from azcentral that was anecdotal? How come you didn't say something then?
Who do you know that has died of the vaccine? And I’m not really sure what you’re referring to with AIG, I don’t come in here very often so I miss most of the stuff posted.
The article was only a page back, I believe. The people that died were friends of my wife's. My coworker that I share an office with has an enlarged heart after his Moderna shot, but he said he's not too concerned about it and the cardiologist is just keeping an eye on it. Hopefully, nothing more comes of it. We also have celebrities that have had adverse effects from the vax, such as Eric Clapton and JImmy Dore said he still is, along with others in his crew with the same issue of neck issues(not sure how it affected the neck, but whatever).
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Split T
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Split T »

I’m sorry that your wife’s friends passed away, can I ask what they passed away from and how it was connected to the vaccine?

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:42 am
I’m sorry that your wife’s friends passed away, can I ask what they passed away from and how it was connected to the vaccine?
I asked her for specifics and she said that both were Diabetic, and after the vax, they both had breathing and heart issues they were their undoing.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Mori Chu
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Mori Chu »

"Vaccine death" is not a thing. If you think you know people who died from a vaccine, you are simply wrong. You are committing the post hoc ergo proptor hoc logical fallacy. Just because someone dies and also took a vaccine does not mean that the vaccine killed them. Meanwhile, the virus itself has killed millions worldwide, but I guess that doesn't worry you very much. What could be more ignorant?

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Denying that people are actually dying from the vaccines is much more ignorant. The religion of the Brand Covidians is a real thing now?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Indy
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Indy »

Mori Chu wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:08 pm
"Vaccine death" is not a thing. If you think you know people who died from a vaccine, you are simply wrong. You are committing the post hoc ergo proptor hoc logical fallacy. Just because someone dies and also took a vaccine does not mean that the vaccine killed them. Meanwhile, the virus itself has killed millions worldwide, but I guess that doesn't worry you very much. What could be more ignorant?
There are confirmed cases of people having side effects from the vaccine and dying from those effects. Just like there are confirmed deaths due to airbags. But to your point, they are in the 0.0001% range where deaths are 1,000x-100,000x more likely.

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Nodack
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Nodack »

This argument is just politics. I don’t get it either. Trumps supporters will do just about anything for Trump and will believe his bs no matter how far fetched it is without hesitation. Trump took credit for the vaccines and told his supporters to get the vaccine and yet they boo him at events when he tells them to get vaccinated. It’s the only thing they have bucked Trump on that I can think of. Right wing media and the vast majority of Republicans are against the vaccines.

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

I'm not sure I'm following your logic, Nodack. Can we add in that the most hesitant demographic is among the black community?
Are you saying that the majority of the black community are Reps? I doubt that you would say that.

Maybe, and I'm only spit-balling it here, so stay with me...it isn't all about politics.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Mori Chu
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Mori Chu »

In2ition wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 am
I'm not sure I'm following your logic, Nodack. Can we add in that the most hesitant demographic is among the black community?
Are you saying that the majority of the black community are Reps? I doubt that you would say that.

Maybe, and I'm only spit-balling it here, so stay with me...it isn't all about politics.
That was somewhat true many months ago, and conservatives love to say it, but it is no longer true. Nowadays, the group that is unvaxxed is Republicans. Here's one article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ccination/

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Indy
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Indy »

Exactly. The unvaccinated is very political, more so that any other way to slice it.

For anyone stuck at the paywall


Image

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Ok, I could be wrong. I did hear that 70% of the black community in NYC is unvaccinated just a couple months ago. Maybe that changed since. Do we know the stats now for sure?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Mori Chu
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Mori Chu »

Yes, we literally just linked you to the stats.

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Paywall is keeping me out. The image of the stats doesn't show what I specifically asked.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Nodack
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Nodack »

Blacks have lagged behind whites in vaccines. They have caught up almost.

Vaccine hesitancy, of course, exists to some degree among all demographic groups. But vaccine skepticism and a general distrust of medical care have historically been issues among African-Americans.

http://www.georgiahealthnews.com/2021/1 ... hesitancy/

The Tuskegee study is one of the most horrific historical examples that still loom large in the Black community. Under that experiment, which began in the days of Jim Crow, 600 African-American sharecroppers were enrolled in a long-term study to observe the course of untreated syphilis. Participants were told they were receiving free medical care from the federal government, while the actual treatment they needed to stem the progress of the disease was withheld.


You are into proving the US Government is evil In2. They have done some bad things over the years no doubt. My stance is that the Government is made up of Americans, not government people. It seems to me the number of Dems and Republicans elected over the years has been pretty even. To hate our government is to hate ourselves. To hate our government is to hate our system of government. If you want to make a difference run for office. Trump was elected and Republicans held a majority in the House and Senate. Republicans were highly represented. They represented the US government that you hate. The Supreme Court has 6 Republicans and 3 Democrats on it. Republicans are highly represented in our evil government.

Stop tearing down our government. Pledge to make it better. Tearing down our government only hurts America IMO.

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In2ition
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by In2ition »

Nodack wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 am
You are into proving the US Government is evil In2. They have done some bad things over the years no doubt. My stance is that the Government is made up of Americans, not government people. It seems to me the number of Dems and Republicans elected over the years has been pretty even. To hate our government is to hate ourselves. To hate our government is to hate our system of government. If you want to make a difference run for office. Trump was elected and Republicans held a majority in the House and Senate. Republicans were highly represented. They represented the US government that you hate. The Supreme Court has 6 Republicans and 3 Democrats on it. Republicans are highly represented in our evil government.

Stop tearing down our government. Pledge to make it better. Tearing down our government only hurts America IMO.
I don't believe in either of these things. To question and be skeptical of the government and the job they do is to hate ourselves and want to destroy the government and government system? Come on, man. I'm not an anarchist. I'm not into insurrection. I'd rather have smaller government. I'd rather have less corrupt government. I'd rather better people acting like civil servants, instead of thinking the citizens are their subjects. I'd rather have unelected officials removed from directing policy and government and manipulating outcomes to their own nefarious means.

It's a bit of 1984 to say that the Party can not be questioned. Only the Party narrative is accepted.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Nodack
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Nodack »

I question the governments actions sometimes. Our government has done a lot of evil things since our beginnings. We are a government made up of it’s people and it’s people have done evil things representing our government. Killing off the Indians and kicking them off their own land to make room for the new America was evil. Stealing Texas, NM, AZ and California from Mexico was evil. There are many more instances. We can say the government is evil and want to end it but it comes down to WE are the government and if we elected the people who did those things who had the blessings of their constituents most of the time.
I'd rather have less corrupt government. I'd rather better people acting like civil servants, instead of thinking the citizens are their subjects. I'd rather have unelected officials removed from directing policy and government and manipulating outcomes to their own nefarious means.
Who doesn’t? Trump and his government did exactly what you are talking about imo and I don’t think you had a problem with it. Trumps government scares the crap out of me. It represents the end of America if he was allowed to continue. You as a Republican of course saw none of that. Trump was the good guy and telling the truth and everyone else was lying.

The government made up of Americans who we vote for. Smaller government. Bigger government. I just want a government that works for the people and not whoever donates the most money to their elections. I don’t believe in Republicans. They have no plans for anything. Our debt? No plan, just blame Dems. Healthcare? No plan, just blame Dems. Infrastructure? No plan, just blame Dems. Cold weather shut down Texas? No plan, blame Dems. Covid ravishing the world? No plan, blame Dems.

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Split T
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Split T »

Nodack wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:36 am

I don’t believe in Republicans. They have no plans for anything. Our debt? No plan, just blame Dems. Healthcare? No plan, just blame Dems. Infrastructure? No plan, just blame Dems. Cold weather shut down Texas? No plan, blame Dems. Covid ravishing the world? No plan, blame Dems.
I’m not a Democrat or a Republican, but I grew up in a Republican home/community and I think this kinda represents what has turned me off from the party. They just seem so resistant to change of any kind. Turning a blind eye to problems in the world and saying they are made up by the other side. Trump and his people seemed at times to take it a step further and try to reverse progress we’ve made over the years.

Some of my opinions still align with conservative beliefs and there are of course good people that I admire who are strong conservatives, but as a whole I’ve been turned off by the Republican Party.

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