Page 22 of 24

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:49 am
by Indy
That is exactly what Putin has been doing for years in Russia, and what his plan has been for the rest of the world, too.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:19 am
by Nodack
It’s almost like they got together and discussed strategy.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:31 am
by Indy
I really don't think Trump has a strategic bone in his body. He is completely about instant gratification. Putin on the other hand, is a long-term thinker. But Trump has always used the media to get what he wants. Whether that is making up a fake John Barron and calling to talk about awesome Donald Trump is and they should write articles about it, or claiming that photos of his inauguration were fake because he had 2 billion people in attendance. He doesn't have any strategy beyond "what is good for me today" or "this second."

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am
by Mori Chu
It looks like we'll pass 100k dead in the USA today from COVID. A very sad milestone.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The NYT has a list of names of the dead as their entire front page.

Image

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 pm
by JeremyG
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am
It looks like we'll pass 100k dead in the USA today from COVID. A very sad milestone.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The NYT has a list of names of the dead as their entire front page.

Image
Yes, it's sad. But where was the NY Times headline during the 2018 flu epidemic reading: "U.S. DEATHS NEAR 60,000, AN INCALCULABLE LOSS" with a list of names printed?

Did those deaths not matter? Do the millions of deaths that will result from the lockdowns not matter? As long as it may have saved a few lives?

Anyone who doesn't think the media controls the narrative in this country is fooling themselves.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 4:37 pm
by Superbone
JeremyG wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am
It looks like we'll pass 100k dead in the USA today from COVID. A very sad milestone.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The NYT has a list of names of the dead as their entire front page.

Image
Yes, it's sad. But where was the NY Times headline during the 2018 flu epidemic reading: "U.S. DEATHS NEAR 60,000, AN INCALCULABLE LOSS" with a list of names printed?

Did those deaths not matter? Do the millions of deaths that will result from the lockdowns not matter? As long as it may have saved a few lives?

Anyone who doesn't think the media controls the narrative in this country is fooling themselves.
Actually 34,200 deaths according to the CDC for the entirety of the 2018-2019 flu season, but who’s counting.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

You want to compare that with the total deaths in only a matter of months due to the coronavirus? Ok.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 5:32 pm
by Indy
millions of death from lockdown?

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 5:34 pm
by Mori Chu
JeremyG wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Yes, it's sad. But where was the NY Times headline during the 2018 flu epidemic reading: "U.S. DEATHS NEAR 60,000, AN INCALCULABLE LOSS" with a list of names printed?

Did those deaths not matter? Do the millions of deaths that will result from the lockdowns not matter? As long as it may have saved a few lives?

Anyone who doesn't think the media controls the narrative in this country is fooling themselves.
What causes you to say that lockdowns will cause millions of deaths? What evidence is there for that?

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:26 pm
by Nodack
I read some of the GOP doctor letter to Trump asking him to open everything up and their point was the people committing suicide, drug overdoses, obesity from being home too much as deaths.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:37 pm
by JeremyG
Superbone wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:37 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am
It looks like we'll pass 100k dead in the USA today from COVID. A very sad milestone.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The NYT has a list of names of the dead as their entire front page.

Image
Yes, it's sad. But where was the NY Times headline during the 2018 flu epidemic reading: "U.S. DEATHS NEAR 60,000, AN INCALCULABLE LOSS" with a list of names printed?

Did those deaths not matter? Do the millions of deaths that will result from the lockdowns not matter? As long as it may have saved a few lives?

Anyone who doesn't think the media controls the narrative in this country is fooling themselves.
Actually 34,200 deaths according to the CDC for the entirety of the 2018-2019 flu season, but who’s counting.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

You want to compare that with the total deaths in only a matter of months due to the coronavirus? Ok.
I was referring to the epidemic of 2017-2018, when anywhere from 61,000 to 80,000 died depending on which estimates you look at. And up to 650,000 die from flu worldwide each year (we're still at only half that total globally from Covid). And Arizona is still only at about half the 2018 flu deaths.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:02 pm
by JeremyG
Mori Chu wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:34 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Yes, it's sad. But where was the NY Times headline during the 2018 flu epidemic reading: "U.S. DEATHS NEAR 60,000, AN INCALCULABLE LOSS" with a list of names printed?

Did those deaths not matter? Do the millions of deaths that will result from the lockdowns not matter? As long as it may have saved a few lives?

Anyone who doesn't think the media controls the narrative in this country is fooling themselves.
What causes you to say that lockdowns will cause millions of deaths? What evidence is there for that?
Just the unemployment alone from the lockdowns in the U.S. will cause way more deaths than the virus (and JP Morgan says the lockdowns didn't even alter the course of the virus anyway, so they may have saved zero lives: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... laims.html)

For every 1.5 million jobs lost, 47,000 Americans die, according to a Johns Hopkins researcher's findings in 2009: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-eco ... i_b_173515

We are now at 38.6 million jobs lost and counting, which equals over 1,209,000 deaths! And the CBO projects that even long-term, unemployment will stay above 10% through 2021.

Put another way, unemployment has about a 3.1% fatality rate, and Covid has less than a 1% fatality rate, according to antibody studies.

Then there are all the deaths from canceled doctor's appointments/surgeries/cancer screenings (UK expert says lack of cancer screenings alone will cause more deaths than the virus: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52382303), from the media fearmongering causing people to have heart attacks with these same heart attack victims being too afraid to go to the ER, and other non-unemployment related deaths from suicide, etc. One doctor says he's seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in 4 weeks: https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-c ... y/6201962/ About 50,000 Americans normally die from suicide each year, so do the math.

But it's not just Americans that are being killed by the lockdowns in the U.S. and other countries. TB is the deadliest infectious disease worldwide, killing 1.5 million people per year, and now up to 1.4 million additional TB deaths will occur due to the lockdowns: https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... 9-lockdown

But wait, it gets worse. The UN says that up to 130 MILLION additional people will be brought to the brink of starvation this year due to the shutdowns: https://apnews.com/ddf274a0521fc3047de31f56cb71dd62 and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/worl ... risis.html

People are already going hungry in parts of Mexico because they are not receiving the usual remittances from their working relatives in America.

These governors and the president (I am no Trump fan by the way, I voted for Gary Johnson) don't even seem to think through the consequences of their actions, before they make these rash, reckless decisions that impact the entire world and are doing way more harm than good.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:46 am
by 3rdside
1. The Daily Mail is a Murdoch paper and can't be trusted, particularly on matters of right wing (open the economy) vs left wing (save lives) views. I don't know how it can say infection rates fell after lock downs were eased in Europe, because most of us are still in lock down in some form or another.

And isn't that the aim of lockdowns, to neuter the spread? To suggest that the prevention was worse than the disease on this basis seems a stretch.


2. The 2009 study on suicides / the 1.209m you calculate maybe not a fair comparison as this is health crisis, not a financial crisis, although it could turn into one.

The only way to calculate the effect on deaths is to measure Excess Deaths and you can see trends pretty clearly even though data is limited.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -countries

Suicides, and other deaths, will take a year or more to manifest so it's hard to make an accurate assessment on this basis right now.



3. The TB and famine articles are interesting regarding 2nd order effects (that also include suicides) and I agree there will be many.

But.

4. Consequences of actions - if you look at what happened in Italy and Spain the only reckless action would have been not to shut down entire nations.


So how any country moves from here, it's probably safe to say no one really knows - Michael Osterholm, one of the best voices on this, says as much (from 10.30 for the specific question):


Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:50 am
by 3rdside
And whatever it is, it's sure to be politicised:

A full and sustained lock down leading to few virus deaths but many 2nd order effect deaths; "see, the left overreacted and look what happened, they ruined everything!"

No lock down and many virus deaths but less 2nd order deaths; "see, the right are savage, they put profits over people and look how many died because their greed"!

It would be a great time to have trustworthy politicians, that's for sure.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:24 am
by Nodack
Power/money corrupts.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:05 am
by 3rdside
Nodack wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:24 am
Power/money corrupts.
Like death and taxes it's the only absolute! And is the underlying reason why purest free markets don't work.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 8:14 am
by Mori Chu
It's a bit strange to compare flu death stats when we did no lockdown to COVID-19 stats where we did have a nation-wide lockdown. If we had chosen to do a lockdown for the regular flu, the flu deaths would have been close to zero. COVID is scary precisely because even despite a massive lockdown and quarantine, it still manages to kill 100,000+ of us in the US alone.

Yes, the economic hardship caused by locking down will cause suffering for some and even death. But it's important to understand the alternatives. If there's no shutdown, the virus sweeps the entire country and almost everyone gets it. Hospitals become completely overrun. Many, many unnecessary deaths occur; hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. And the economy *still* will collapse, because people will be too terrified to participate in their normal economic activity once millions are dead.

The economy is not going to come roaring back just because some states choose to reopen. People will remain cautious, won't spend or consume at their usual levels. The virus will resurge, increasing caution and fear. Some entire industries, such as restaurants and bars, are going to be nearly wiped out. This isn't the lockdown's fault; it is the virus's fault.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:04 am
by Nodack
Blaming a virus doesn’t work well politically. Much better to blame your enemies.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:21 am
by 3rdside
This is one of the Economist's better cartoon's of late:


Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:08 pm
by JeremyG
Mori Chu wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:14 am
It's a bit strange to compare flu death stats when we did no lockdown to COVID-19 stats where we did have a nation-wide lockdown. If we had chosen to do a lockdown for the regular flu, the flu deaths would have been close to zero. COVID is scary precisely because even despite a massive lockdown and quarantine, it still manages to kill 100,000+ of us in the US alone.

Yes, the economic hardship caused by locking down will cause suffering for some and even death. But it's important to understand the alternatives. If there's no shutdown, the virus sweeps the entire country and almost everyone gets it. Hospitals become completely overrun. Many, many unnecessary deaths occur; hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. And the economy *still* will collapse, because people will be too terrified to participate in their normal economic activity once millions are dead.

The economy is not going to come roaring back just because some states choose to reopen. People will remain cautious, won't spend or consume at their usual levels. The virus will resurge, increasing caution and fear. Some entire industries, such as restaurants and bars, are going to be nearly wiped out. This isn't the lockdown's fault; it is the virus's fault.
You're giving way too much credit to the lockdowns (which are completely unconstitutional by the way). Did you look at the JP Morgan study I linked to, which claims the lockdowns did not change the trajectory of the pandemic?

Even Governor Cuomo admitted that most of the hospitalizations were from people who were staying at home: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov- ... -home.html So I guess this means that we should now be expecting a “STAY AWAY FROM HOME” order? If that is the most “dangerous” place to be, then in light of this new data, logically the governors should now all be issuing “Don’t You Dare Ever Stay At Home” orders all across the nation, right?!

A "quarantine" can't stop the virus from spreading when everyone still goes to Walmart. I'm always afraid to go there during flu season even, lol.

Millions of deaths from the virus? You mean like we are seeing in Sweden, which has half the population of New York but only 1/6th of the deaths? How about Belarus, which has almost 10 million people and 204 deaths, with no lockdowns? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... y/belarus/ That's 2 million more people than Arizona and 1/4th of the deaths.

And no, people are not too scared to go to work or participate in economic activity in Sweden or Belarus. If the media and government had not hyped up the virus and spread fear, the virus itself would not have caused anywhere near this level of economic ruin and loss of life.

Re: Coronavirus

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:51 pm
by Superbone
You do you, Jeremy. I’ll stick to my social distancing.