Biden Administration misc. activities

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specialsauce
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:13 pm
virtual9mm wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:09 pm
I will simply say that there is something to be said for progressive income taxes and that inequality is fueling political dysfunction and social instability. Sure, government needs to stop being so damned inefficient, too, but income taxes are close to the lowest they have been, ever.

Then again, why does the US spend 3 billion on an AEGIS destroyer when the Koreans are fielding a better ship for a billion?
progressive taxes are almost always better than flat ones. The two things that fuck up the US is that our tax rates stop escalating at too low of a rate, and at too low of an income, and we have too many deductions.
I disagree entirely. Completely takes away the reward for people to work hard. Come up with a number.

Someone with $100k pays only 10k in taxes.

Someone with $1M pays freaking 100k in taxes. That’s way more but proportionally impacts their bottom line the same.

People barely making ends meet get no taxes, everyone else pays the same percentage whether you make $50k or $500k. It’s different totals but on the same level.

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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

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specialsauce wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:39 pm
Ok so I was off some. I was actually at 28% as a family and had just about no deductions The point is that most people are not somehow just getting away with not paying taxes. My debt to income ratio is the same in proportion, and taxes are irrelevant.

$10k/100k = $100k/$1M regardless of your generalizations that “wealthier people are just getting away with it”
It isn't, though. I mean I hear what you are saying that not all people in your tax bracket are getting away without paying taxes. I am a single income family, and I am not a doctor or lawyer or in finance/sales. I paid about 23%.

But your standard cost of living is a huge component of what it means to have 23% of 100k taken away vs 23% of 500k taken away.

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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

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That ends up being a regressive tax.

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specialsauce
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:24 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:39 pm
Ok so I was off some. I was actually at 28% as a family and had just about no deductions The point is that most people are not somehow just getting away with not paying taxes. My debt to income ratio is the same in proportion, and taxes are irrelevant.

$10k/100k = $100k/$1M regardless of your generalizations that “wealthier people are just getting away with it”
It isn't, though. I mean I hear what you are saying that not all people in your tax bracket are getting away without paying taxes. I am a single income family, and I am not a doctor or lawyer or in finance/sales. I paid about 23%.

But your standard cost of living is a huge component of what it means to have 23% of 100k taken away vs 23% of 500k taken away.
23% is stupid. You should not be paying a quarter of your money back to the government.

If Billionaires actually paid say 15-20%, we wouldn’t have to be paying 25%.

The difference between $100k-$500k is not significant in comparison to someone making $25M annually. It’s an unfair grouping.

There should be no loopholes where multimillionaires can manipulate to just claim depreciation or show “losses” and not pay taxes.

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specialsauce
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm
That ends up being a regressive tax.
That is just not true. It is factually the same proportion to scale.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Mori Chu »

Last night President Biden gave a political speech calling out Trump and "MAGA Republicans" as dangers to our democracy. He has previously called them "semi-fascists." Did any of you watch it, or clips of it? What did you think?

The Republican response to the speech seems to be, a), This speech was divisive and calls 1/2 of the country evil/traitors, and b), he should not have given a partisan speech from the White House complete with US Marines by his side because this politicizes the military.



Here's a clip of some of the strongest words:


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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

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specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:35 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm
That ends up being a regressive tax.
That is just not true. It is factually the same proportion to scale.
It is regressive because the family making 500k doesn't have to spend 5x as much to support their family as the family making 100k, as there is a baseline for what it costs to live securely. In a relatively cheap city, that is probably between 70-100k for a family of 4. So taxing that 100k family even 10% is a burden to their security, whereas 10% to a 500k family doesn't.

Our rates costs a family making:

50k a year 11%
100k a year 14%
500k a year 25%
1M a year 30%
5M a year 36%
10M a year 36%
100M a year 37%
1B a year 37%

This is crazy, as it puts a huge burden on people barely making ends meet. Before Reagan we had dozens of tax brackets to distinguish between what it costs to live. And the highest end for extremely wealthy earners capped out around 90%.

We now have that down to 37%, and honestly the income isn't even that high for that bracket (~500k) compared to what it has been historically.

We stopped caring about a progressive tax in the 80s and even more so under Bush 2 and then again under Trump. So instead of the extremely wealthy having to pay for our extravagant military, now it is you and I and even the family barely making ends meet.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Mori Chu »

These tweets fit how I feel about the situation fairly well. We are in a crisis, where a major party has a large subset that openly wants to overturn democracy. Stand up to it; call it what it is; don't back down from it. I think Biden's speech is a step in the right direction.




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Nodack
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Nodack »

The Republican response to the speech seems to be, a), This speech was divisive and calls 1/2 of the country evil/traitors, and b), he should not have given a partisan speech from the White House complete with US Marines by his side because this politicizes the military.
I couldn’t possibly care any less what MAGA thinks at this point.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by virtual9mm »

Nodack wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:29 pm
And now they want to scrap that destroyer because it doesn’t hunt subs like it was supposed to.
That's the Zumwalt-class. The three ships in the class cost a total of 22.4 billion.

What I was referring to was the cost of the latest Arleigh Burkes, of which the Korean KDX-III Flight 2 is an upgraded version of, which costs just over a billion USD even using all the same pieces including AEGIS. It carries 128 missiles instead of 96.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by virtual9mm »

Briefly expanding upon my point regarding progressive taxes, let's put it this way. Studies have shown that an incremental dollar of additional wealth does a lot to make a poor person happier, while an additional dollar makes almost no difference to someone with over 140,000 USD of income before inflation -- probably more like 200k now. This is because for a very poor person, it's the difference between having a roof and being homeless, while for a very rich person, it's the difference between having two or three yachts. If economics is about utility maximization, shouldn't we redistribute down the income ladder?

And let's shift the focus to the search for meaning, which is probably a better measure of fulfillment than happiness. Isn't it more meaningful to lift the destitute out of poverty than to give the superwealthy an additional dollar?

I'm sympathetic to Saucy's argument about 600k of med school debt -- it's a broken system. But what you're really angry about is not the progressive tax rates but rather the artificial system to limit doctors in the country using education as a gatekeeper -- and how broken higher education is. I know because I work in that system.

But let's leave everything else aside -- and focus on the one thing that everyone can agree upon. How is it that BILLIONAIRES are paying 8-13% of their income in taxes, while the Saucies of the world are paying 3x that on average? How is it possibly fair?

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specialsauce
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by specialsauce »

Yeah there should be no loopholes or deductions. It’s ridiculous.

Also, you want to distribute and help the poor? Don’t spend $22 BILLION DOLLARS ON STUPID FUCKING SHIPS and give people free healthcare or education instead. The defense spending is a total corrupt joke.

The answer to assistance is to take it from Washington not from the pockets of other citizens.

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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:44 pm
Yeah there should be no loopholes or deductions. It’s ridiculous.

Also, you want to distribute and help the poor? Don’t spend $22 BILLION DOLLARS ON STUPID FUCKING SHIPS and give people free healthcare or education instead. The defense spending is a total corrupt joke.

The answer to assistance is to take it from Washington not from the pockets of other citizens.
It is both (but especially corporations).

Oh, and 100% agree on no loopholes or deductions. Make a standard 100k completely untaxed for a head of household/married filed jointly, 50k untaxed for a single person.

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Nodack
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Nodack »

I am ok with that. I am not rich by any standard but, as a musician I can write off some of my expenses. I have to keep a log book of every mile I travel for business reasons. I have to document every purchase for the business. It’s a real pain in the ass around tax time. I would welcome a simpler approach.

As far as the military spending goes, I don’t like wasteful spending on failed military hardware but, I also know we are the world premiere military power and I believe that has kept us from WWIII for many decades. We also need to take care of the people we are trying to protect with our military. It’s a careful balance that isn’t always balanced.

Billionaires not paying their fair share is a crime. You don’t need 12 yachts while people are starving. We are a community. When we are attacked we as a community respond as a community. We need to act like a community and protect all of us.

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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Nodack »

virtual9mm wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:22 pm
Nodack wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:29 pm
And now they want to scrap that destroyer because it doesn’t hunt subs like it was supposed to.
That's the Zumwalt-class. The three ships in the class cost a total of 22.4 billion.

What I was referring to was the cost of the latest Arleigh Burkes, of which the Korean KDX-III Flight 2 is an upgraded version of, which costs just over a billion USD even using all the same pieces including AEGIS. It carries 128 missiles instead of 96.
I suspected I got that wrong when I posted it. The Zumwalt class is the stealth catamaran style ships that can sail in shallower waters and the Arkwright Burkes is the super stealthy looking destroyer. The Zumwalt ships are so cool looking and seemed like a great idea. They are super versatile. They sail in shallow waters, they have a built in hovercraft and helicopter pad, etc. Them not being able hunt subs like they were supposed to is killing it. I don’t know why their sub hunting abilities failed.

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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

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Regarding the Zumwalt, Ray Mabus thought that the Zumwalt class would be a capital ship when he was SecNavy. So, he named the second ship of the class after a President, just like a carrier (i.e., a capital ship), which is something he verified in person a long, long time ago when I was a different kind of person, someone who had conversations with these kinds of folks. This has turned out to be something of a sick joke, unfortunately.

Regarding defense spending, it's a necessary evil -- or do you really want Beijing to be telling you how to live your life, and enjoy a patriotic education glorifying Mao and Xi? To me, the military is like the police -- you really can't live without it. That being said, you don't need to bend over backwards for the military-industrial complex all the time, the US should be BUYING weapons systems from overseas manufacturers if you'll save 2/3rds of the cost. At least it will limit the avarice and rent-seeking of the domestic monopolies.

Regarding progressive income taxes -- beyond what I've written above -- it's hard not to say that the wealthy and well-to-do have benefited more from a stable society than the less well-off. Shouldn't you pay for what you get? Who has more to lose if the government collapses, at least in dollar terms? It should be that the billionaires pay the most by far, the well-to-do pay their fair share, and the poor pay little if anything at all.

Speaking along these lines, if we didn't have such massive economic inequality, we also probably wouldn't have the madness that is MAGA-land. An old colleague explained to me once that MAGA was originally triggered by the bankers getting off scot-free after the 2008 recession, when they lost gambles they made with public money. If we had fewer folks that were having such a rough time and also, fewer folks who are living in mansions and have multiple yachts, we'd have far less polarization. Perfect examples of countries that very much look like the US except for having less inequality and less crazy politics are Canada and Australia. If I were super-wealthy, having a stable society would be worth a great deal of money. Yet, the folks I know who live in mansions don't seem to think this way -- they think that their taxes are too high.

I'm not beating up on you, Saucy, since you're carrying huge amounts of student debt.

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Nodack
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Nodack »

+1000

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specialsauce
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by specialsauce »

virtual9mm wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:32 am
Regarding the Zumwalt, Ray Mabus thought that the Zumwalt class would be a capital ship when he was SecNavy. So, he named the second ship of the class after a President, just like a carrier (i.e., a capital ship), which is something he verified in person a long, long time ago when I was a different kind of person, someone who had conversations with these kinds of folks. This has turned out to be something of a sick joke, unfortunately.

Regarding defense spending, it's a necessary evil -- or do you really want Beijing to be telling you how to live your life, and enjoy a patriotic education glorifying Mao and Xi? To me, the military is like the police -- you really can't live without it. That being said, you don't need to bend over backwards for the military-industrial complex all the time, the US should be BUYING weapons systems from overseas manufacturers if you'll save 2/3rds of the cost. At least it will limit the avarice and rent-seeking of the domestic monopolies.

Regarding progressive income taxes -- beyond what I've written above -- it's hard not to say that the wealthy and well-to-do have benefited more from a stable society than the less well-off. Shouldn't you pay for what you get? Who has more to lose if the government collapses, at least in dollar terms? It should be that the billionaires pay the most by far, the well-to-do pay their fair share, and the poor pay little if anything at all.

Speaking along these lines, if we didn't have such massive economic inequality, we also probably wouldn't have the madness that is MAGA-land. An old colleague explained to me once that MAGA was originally triggered by the bankers getting off scot-free after the 2008 recession, when they lost gambles they made with public money. If we had fewer folks that were having such a rough time and also, fewer folks who are living in mansions and have multiple yachts, we'd have far less polarization. Perfect examples of countries that very much look like the US except for having less inequality and less crazy politics are Canada and Australia. If I were super-wealthy, having a stable society would be worth a great deal of money. Yet, the folks I know who live in mansions don't seem to think this way -- they think that their taxes are too high.

I'm not beating up on you, Saucy, since you're carrying huge amounts of student debt.
Sounds like a lot of woe-is-me.

A majority of people are in the position they are because of their own decisions. It’s not a good or bad thing, as money is not the only thing that matters in this world. But IMO it’s not my problem if cost of living is more of a problem for someone making 100k than 500k. You chose that life. Disability, kids in the system, mental health/substance abuse aid aside (I am all for funneling all of our money to those impacted by these), if you just chose to take on a career that you did, you live with the consequences just like I do, I don’t complain that I work weekends, nights, most holidays and could be sued for every penny that is to my family’s name at a moments notice because of an honest mistake. Does your job put you at risk for that? If you mess up a project or gloss over the detail and leave something out will you potentially lose your entire worth?

Circumstances are different, and yet we are all citizens in the same country with the same government. They should not play favorites.


And no, spending $22B on a ship is bullshit. No way to spin it.

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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:50 pm
virtual9mm wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:32 am
Regarding the Zumwalt, Ray Mabus thought that the Zumwalt class would be a capital ship when he was SecNavy. So, he named the second ship of the class after a President, just like a carrier (i.e., a capital ship), which is something he verified in person a long, long time ago when I was a different kind of person, someone who had conversations with these kinds of folks. This has turned out to be something of a sick joke, unfortunately.

Regarding defense spending, it's a necessary evil -- or do you really want Beijing to be telling you how to live your life, and enjoy a patriotic education glorifying Mao and Xi? To me, the military is like the police -- you really can't live without it. That being said, you don't need to bend over backwards for the military-industrial complex all the time, the US should be BUYING weapons systems from overseas manufacturers if you'll save 2/3rds of the cost. At least it will limit the avarice and rent-seeking of the domestic monopolies.

Regarding progressive income taxes -- beyond what I've written above -- it's hard not to say that the wealthy and well-to-do have benefited more from a stable society than the less well-off. Shouldn't you pay for what you get? Who has more to lose if the government collapses, at least in dollar terms? It should be that the billionaires pay the most by far, the well-to-do pay their fair share, and the poor pay little if anything at all.

Speaking along these lines, if we didn't have such massive economic inequality, we also probably wouldn't have the madness that is MAGA-land. An old colleague explained to me once that MAGA was originally triggered by the bankers getting off scot-free after the 2008 recession, when they lost gambles they made with public money. If we had fewer folks that were having such a rough time and also, fewer folks who are living in mansions and have multiple yachts, we'd have far less polarization. Perfect examples of countries that very much look like the US except for having less inequality and less crazy politics are Canada and Australia. If I were super-wealthy, having a stable society would be worth a great deal of money. Yet, the folks I know who live in mansions don't seem to think this way -- they think that their taxes are too high.

I'm not beating up on you, Saucy, since you're carrying huge amounts of student debt.
Sounds like a lot of woe-is-me.

A majority of people are in the position they are because of their own decisions. It’s not a good or bad thing, as money is not the only thing that matters in this world. But IMO it’s not my problem if cost of living is more of a problem for someone making 100k than 500k. You chose that life. Disability, kids in the system, mental health/substance abuse aid aside (I am all for funneling all of our money to those impacted by these), if you just chose to take on a career that you did, you live with the consequences just like I do, I don’t complain that I work weekends, nights, most holidays and could be sued for every penny that is to my family’s name at a moments notice because of an honest mistake. Does your job put you at risk for that? If you mess up a project or gloss over the detail and leave something out will you potentially lose your entire worth?

Circumstances are different, and yet we are all citizens in the same country with the same government. They should not play favorites.


And no, spending $22B on a ship is bullshit. No way to spin it.
That is nonsense. You think the majority of billionaires are billionaires by their own accord? And that the majority of people living near the poverty line are there because they chose to be or they are just 'bad with money'?

And by the same token, the reason you have 500k in student debt is because you chose to. Most people in this country are not allowed to take out 500k for medical school.

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Indy
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Re: Biden Administration misc. activities

Post by Indy »

virtual9mm wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:32 am

Regarding defense spending, it's a necessary evil -- or do you really want Beijing to be telling you how to live your life, and enjoy a patriotic education glorifying Mao and Xi? To me, the military is like the police -- you really can't live without it. That being said, you don't need to bend over backwards for the military-industrial complex all the time, the US should be BUYING weapons systems from overseas manufacturers if you'll save 2/3rds of the cost. At least it will limit the avarice and rent-seeking of the domestic monopolies.
I agree with almost all of that. The cop part is the part I disagree with. We could live without 80% of the cops and replace them social workers and teachers and elderly care specialists and be so much better for it. Our society asks cops to do the jobs these people do and they are not equipped for it.

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