Israel / Palestine

[AmareIsGod]

I find myself deeply troubled by the violence and loss of innocent life on both sides, but particularly moved by the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

The reports of widespread casualties, including women, children, and aid workers, as a result of Israeli airstrikes and military operations are heartbreaking. While I understand Israel's stated objective of targeting Hamas militants, the scale of civilian suffering is horrific and, in my view, disproportionate and unjustifiable.

At the same time, I empathize with the fear and pain experienced by Israeli civilians facing indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza. All innocent lives lost in this conflict are tragic.

However, looking at the bigger picture, it's clear that Palestinians are the party with vastly less power, resources, and international support in this asymmetric conflict. For decades, they have suffered under Israeli occupation and apartheid conditions in Gaza and the West Bank, with their human rights and self-determination severely curtailed.

So while I unequivocally condemn violence on all sides, I believe the protesters are justified in their urgent calls for change in U.S. policy. The U.S. has long been complicit in Palestinian oppression through its unconditional military, economic, and diplomatic support for Israel.

Universities divesting from companies that support the occupation, and the U.S. government ending military aid that enables Israel's disproportionate use of force, would be important steps to pressure Israel to end its siege of Gaza and its overall subjugation of Palestinians. A just and lasting peace requires addressing the gross power imbalance and guaranteeing Palestinians' basic human rights.

While I'm disturbed by reports of antisemitic harassment, which must be unequivocally condemned, I believe the protesters' core message is valid and necessary. Holding Israel accountable and standing up for Palestinians' humanity is not antisemitic, it's a moral imperative. My heart breaks for all the innocent lives shattered, but it's clear the status quo is untenable. Palestinians deserve justice, dignity, and self-determination, just like any other people. Only when their suffering is recognized and addressed can true peace prevail.

[Nodack]

Nice well thought out take Amareisgod. While I sympathize with both sides, I don’t have as much sympathy for the Palestinian side as you do. The Israeli’s have notoriously treated Palestinians with a lack of respect. Then again the Palestinians have vowed to kill all the Jews from the river to the sea. I would have an attitude too. Have the Israeli’s gone too far in their revenge? If they are targeting civilians then I think they have gone too far. What does a civilian look like compared to Hamas fighter?

Israel has the US to back them up. The Palestinians have Hamas/Iran backing them up. I think the US gives them millions too.

I don’t know about every protest. Bill Maher was talking about some chanting “Death to Israel!” and “Death to America” in America. That’s pretty bad. Hamas are the good guys now? The Palestinians need to retire their vow to wipe Israel off the map before any real peace can happen imo.

[Mori Chu]

I don't know if anybody chanted "Death to America" or "Death to Israel," which of course I would not support. But even if they had, such yucky phrases still fall under the 1st Amendment and freedom of speech. You shouldn't be able to arrest somebody for saying phrases like that in public even if you find the phrases revolting.

[AmareIsGod]

Nice well thought out take Amareisgod. While I sympathize with both sides, I don’t have as much sympathy for the Palestinian side as you do. The Israeli’s have notoriously treated Palestinians with a lack of respect. Then again the Palestinians have vowed to kill all the Jews from the river to the sea. I would have an attitude too. Have the Israeli’s gone too far in their revenge? If they are targeting civilians then I think they have gone too far. What does a civilian look like compared to Hamas fighter?

Israel has the US to back them up. The Palestinians have Hamas/Iran backing them up. I think the US gives them millions too.

I don’t know about every protest. Bill Maher was talking about some chanting “Death to Israel!” and “Death to America” in America. That’s pretty bad. Hamas are the good guys now? The Palestinians need to retire their vow to wipe Israel off the map before any real peace can happen imo.

You confuse Hamas with Palestinians. They may share the same soil, but they don't share the same ideas. I know many friends from around the world. A Pakistani friend I cherish with a heart of gold spent most of her life in Pakistan and has been all around that region of the world. She has told me, without hesitation, that Palestinians are some of the kindest and warmest people you'll ever meet.

It would be like the United States going to war with the cartels in Mexico, bombing entire Mexican cities and wiping out Mexican citizens to rid the region and the world of the cartel. Mexican citizens aren't cartel, just because they share the same city and neighborhoods.

[Nodack]

The government of the Palestinian people is Hamas. The police for the Palestinian people is Hamas. The Sanitation department for the Palestinians is Hamas. The Palestinian Hospitals are run by Hamas. The people firing off thousands of missiles at Israel from Gaza year after year after year is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group. Who makes up Hamas? Palestinians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation. It emerged from his 1973 Mujama al-Islamiya Islamic charity affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood.[55] In 2006, Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election by campaigning on clean government without corruption, combined with affirmation of Palestinians’ right to armed struggle against the Israeli occupation, thus winning a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council.[56] In 2007, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip from rival Palestinian faction Fatah,[57][58] which it has governed since separately from the Palestinian National Authority.

People like to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people as if they were two completely different entities that had absolutely nothing to do with each other. Hamas is bad. Palestinians are good. Why is Israel attacking these peaceful Palestinians when they should be going after Hamas instead? I don’t see it that way. When your government is a terrorist group and the stated goal of that group is to wipe Israel off the map, you have a problem. Hamas pays Palestinian civilians money to attack Jews. When you are at a hospital in Gaza and Hamas is right behind the Hospital shooting rockets towards Israel, you have a problem. Hamas pretty much has dared Israel to retaliate for their constant attacks. This happens year after year after year and what have the Palestinian people done about their terrorist government? Absolutely nothing.

I have no doubt that some of the nicest people you will ever meet are Palestinians. Some of the nicest people you will ever meet are Israeli’s. They hate each other and want to kill each other when they aren’t being the nicest people you will ever meet.

I don’t mean to take Israel’s side. I don’t like what they are doing. I just see so many people who seem to think the Palestinians are completely innocent and have absolutely nothing to do with Hamas or actually think Hamas is the good guys.

[AmareIsGod]

I hear your perspective that Hamas and the Palestinian people are connected, and that Hamas' actions and ideology have contributed significantly to the ongoing conflict and suffering. You make valid points about Hamas' terrorist designation, its control of Gaza, and its stated goal of armed resistance against Israel.

However, I would caution against confusing Hamas with the entirety of the Palestinian people. While Hamas did win parliamentary elections in 2006, its governance of Gaza since 2007 has been marked by authoritarian rule, political repression, and human rights abuses against fellow Palestinians. Many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank oppose Hamas' ideology and tactics.

It's also important to recognize the context in which Hamas emerged and gained support - decades of Israeli military occupation, settlement expansion, land confiscation, restrictions on movement and economic activity, and lack of civil and political rights for Palestinians. While Hamas' violence is inexcusable, it feeds off legitimate grievances and desperation from these oppressive conditions.

Polling shows most Palestinians want a peaceful two-state solution, not endless war. But with the peace process stalled, illegal settlements expanding, and their rights denied, some see armed struggle as their only option. This dynamic empowers extremists like Hamas.

So while I agree Hamas bears responsibility for escalating violence and endangering civilians, I don't believe it's fair or accurate to equate them with the Palestinian people on the whole. Millions of Palestinians are not involved with Hamas and simply yearn for freedom, dignity and a better future for their children.

Blaming an entire group for the actions of some to all Palestinians for Hamas' actions only creates more resentment and extremism. Lasting peace requires addressing the legitimate aspirations and grievances of both peoples, marginalizing extremists on all sides, and upholding everyone's basic human rights. Only then can the cycle of violence be broken.

Let me know if you want any links or references Nodack. It's always great having debates with you all, especially when we show each other respect as we have!

[Nodack]

I totally respect you Amareisgod because you earned it.

I actually hate taking any sides in this conflict. If everyone was taking the Israel side I would probably be telling the Palestinian side more. Neither side is guiltless in this.

I saw BLM etc, protesting their government in large numbers. I saw Maga gathering and protesting their own government in large numbers. I see the pro Palestinian protests going on at Universities across America protesting against their government. I saw no Palestinian protests against them being used as pawns in Gaza by Hamas ever or anything resembling an uprising of any kind by the people against their government being a terrorist organization who uses Palestinians as human shields in attacks against Israel. That’s what bothers me. They seemed to be good with everything going on. Are they so repressed by Hamas that they are afraid to speak up decade after decade? They are willing to die for their cause, put their families lives in harms way for the cause and yet are afraid to speak their minds? Show me something. They get some blame here. Do they deserve to have their city turned into rubble and tens of thousands killed? I do know that the repercussions of the Hamas attack has turned their city into rubble and tens of thousands have been killed. Israel thinks they deserve some blame.

On the Israel side, I am not sure what their end game plan is. They made Gaza a parking lot and it makes me wonder if Netanyahu thinks he just acquired some new coastline property. That would be pretty evil. Biden wouldn’t be cool with that and neither would that section of the world. A lot of people in Israel aren’t cool with Netanyahu either.

[Split T]

People are taking the Palestinian side because the US/Biden is taking Israel’s side.

Ya there’s a lot of history there and both sides deserve blame, but right now Palestine is the kid on the ground knocked unconscious and Israel keeps kicking. The US is standing behind Israel saying, “that’s enough,” but not actually doing anything about it.

[AmareIsGod]

You're absolutely right that many Palestinians feel deeply oppressed by Hamas' cruel and unfair rule in Gaza. Those who speak out against Hamas often face terrible consequences like being thrown in jail or even tortured. Protests against Hamas do happen, but are usually shut down quickly and violently. So while some Palestinians support Hamas as a way to fight back against Israel, many others stay quiet because they are afraid, not because they agree with Hamas.

At the same time, Palestinians have shown amazing bravery in protesting and resisting the Israeli occupation, from the First Intifada in the late 1980s to the weekly protests at the Gaza border happening now. They risk their lives and their ability to provide for their families to demand basic rights and respect.

So I don't think it's right to say Palestinians are okay with everything going on or that they should be blamed for what Hamas does. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, dealing with Hamas' cruelty on one side and the destruction caused by Israeli bombs and missiles on the other. Sadly, extremist groups like Hamas often gain more support when people feel hopeless and powerless.

You bring up a scary possibility about what Israel's ultimate goal in Gaza might be. While I hope taking over Gaza permanently is not the plan, the massive number of civilian deaths and destruction of homes and necessary infrastructure is hard to justify or explain.

Both sides have done terrible things, but there is a huge difference in power and in who is suffering the most. Any fair solution has to take that difference into account. Palestinians deserve the right to govern themselves and to be free from occupation and blockade. Israelis deserve to feel safe and not have to worry about rocket attacks and terrorism.

Figuring out who is to blame is less important than finding a way to move forward. Leaders on both sides need to be brave and do the hard work of breaking the cycle of violence, addressing the reasonable complaints and concerns of both sides, and negotiating a peace agreement that actually lasts, with help from the international community. The other option is just more tragedy and trauma for generations to come.

These are just my thoughts based on what I know. I don't claim to have all the answers to such a heartbreakingly complicated conflict. But I do believe all people, Israeli and Palestinian, deserve to live in peace with justice and dignity. Empathy, compassion and a commitment to basic human rights for everyone must show us the way forward.

[AmareIsGod]

People are taking the Palestinian side because the US/Biden is taking Israel’s side.

Ya there’s a lot of history there and both sides deserve blame, but right now Palestine is the kid on the ground knocked unconscious and Israel keeps kicking. The US is standing behind Israel saying, “that’s enough,” but not actually doing anything about it.

We are very much accomplices in this situation and this is the biggest reason people are protesting in our country. Until our government starts doing something instead of just saying things, the voices will get louder and the groups protesting will get larger.

[Mori Chu]

Another protest, this time at Emory University in Atlanta. The cops throw a professor to the ground and cuff her.

[Mori Chu]

This one is at Ohio State.

[AmareIsGod]

A bunch of violent protesters. All of the destruction and mayhem.

[Mori Chu]

Uh oh.

[Mori Chu]

This clip from Bernie Sanders is so fucking money. I agree 100% with every word. Glad he said this.

[Nodack]

Me too.

[Mori Chu]

[Nodack]

Not sure if you will ever hear the truth from either side in this war. I take everything either side says with a lot of skepticism.

[In2ition]

Not that there is anything wrong with calling.

[Mori Chu]

I don't understand that comment.