Israel / Palestine

* THIS SECTION IS NOW CLOSED *
Locked
User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Shabazz »

Cap wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 12:10 pm
Nodack wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 11:54 am

I don’t think Israel sees it the same way you guys do. When the Germans bombed the UK, how much aid did they deliver to the UK? When we bombed Japan, how much aid did we send? How much aid has Putin sent to Ukraine?
This is Israel’s own occupied territory. Being an occupying power comes with responsibilities.
Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005. They forcefully pulled every citizen they had there out of Gaza, kicking and screaming, and returned it to the Palestinian people. They also left pretty significant infrastructure in place when they pulled out, which Hamas decided to destroy rather than using Jewish buildings. Since 2005, the Gazans have elected Hamas, whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel (and Jews abroad), and who have taken the Billions they received in aid globally and poured it into a complex system of tunnels used mostly for terrorist purposes rather than use that aid for the benefit of their people.

For all the talk in this chat of "Genocide" and "Apartheid," people should be aware that the population of Gaza has increased 4x since Israel withdrew and that there are over 2 million Israeli Arabs who live mostly peacefully alongside Israelis. They have regular jobs, work alongside Israelis and serve in Government positions.

This will sound callous, but is fundamentally true: If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it could. But it doesn't want to, so it doesn't. Hamas, on the other hand, does want to commit genocide, but it can't, so it doesn't. Please read the following on the civilian/combatant fatality ratio, and where this conflict stands in the history of urban warfare: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-cre ... on-1883286.

It's sad that people on here seem unwilling to recognize who started this most recent part of the conflict (there was a ceasefire in place on Oct 7th) and how often the democratically elected, socially liberal ally of the US is being villainized, while the jihadi/sharia terrorist organization has mostly gotten a pass other than some "Hamas is also bad" type equivalencies. I didn't see anyone post anything here when the video came out with the 7 kidnapped Israeli women (still all either hostages or killed) surrounded by terrorists gleefully talking about how they were the ones "who can get pregnant." I don't see anyone posting about the indiscriminate rocket fire into Israeli civilian areas from Gaza - mostly because the Iron Dome system intercepts the rockets, which speaks nothing about the intent. In fact, evidence is starting to come out that Hamas, who is known to hide behind civilians as a tactic, was storying munitions in the refugee tents during recent Rafah tragedy and those munitions are what caused the level of destruction.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 28280
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Split T »

No one expects Hamas to be good…they are a terrorist organization…Israel should be better. That’s what it is for me. I understand Hamas started this, but it’s turned into more than Hamas vs Israel…innocent Palestinians are getting caught in the crossfire and Israel doesn’t seem concerned.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 9701
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Nodack »

Split T wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 12:05 pm
Ya the difference here is you see the Palestinian people as the enemy. Doesn’t make sense to me…I know you’re only a 6 year old, but your parents are Palestinian so no aid for you…and if you die, no big deal.
It seems to me the Palestinians have declared Israel the enemy a long long time ago and have vowed to never stop trying to kill them all any way they can. They launched a raid across the border and killed over a thousand people. That’s not what friends do. Because they are weaker it makes it sort of ok when they kill Israeli citizens and even celebrated by many. Since Israel has a superior military they instantly become the bad guy if they respond.

I know you guys separate Hamas from the Palestinians as two completely different entities. I don’t consider them any more separate than the civilians in any other war. We sent bombers over Japan cities and dropped napalm on them turning their cities into ashes along with all the civilian women and children. Then we dropped nukes on them and we certainly didn’t send them any food or supplies. I can’t fault the US. It was us or them and we chose us. After the war we helped them a lot. Wars are fought until one side surrenders or they both agree to a truce. Is this a war? Then Hamas/Palestinians or Israel needs to surrender or they both agree to a truce.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

If you don't think Hamas and the Palestinians are separate at all, I can see why the genocide against the Palestinians doesn't bother you.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

Shabazz wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 3:50 pm
This will sound callous, but is fundamentally true: If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it could. But it doesn't want to, so it doesn't.
It sounds really, really naive, not callous.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 9701
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Nodack »

Mori Chu wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 1:04 am
If you don't think Hamas and the Palestinians are separate at all, I can see why the genocide against the Palestinians doesn't bother you.
I knew my post would set you off.

The entire thing bothers me and has been going on before I was even born and I’m old now. The Palestinian side vowing to wipe Israel off the map for the past 70 years doesn’t bother you? Wiping the Jews off the map sounds a lot like they are endorsing genocide to me. It’s not like they are bluffing. They have tried many times to take out Israel and with the help of other countries at times too. They could have agreed to living peacefully with Israel at any time in those 70+ years. They preferred a permanent war with Israel. A war that Israel could win any time they wanted.

At some point this needs to resolve and I believe Israel after the last Hamas attack has decided to win the war and not care about the rest of the world thinks. Give back the hostages and surrender. Sign a truce for permanent peace.


March 22, 2024 | Flash Brief

Poll: Hamas Remains Popular Among Palestinians
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22 ... estinians/
Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist group attacked Israel on October 7. The poll, published by the Ramallah-based non-profit Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, also indicates that Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas and his faction have grown even more unpopular since the war in Gaza started.

Expert Analysis
“I will make this prediction: If Hamas ends up being seen as the winner of the war it started on October 7, support for Hamas among Palestinians will only increase. But if Hamas is seen as losing the war — its military and governing capabilities shattered — support for Hamas among Palestinians will decrease, perhaps sharply. To be clear: If it turns out that Hamas’s invasion of Israel and multiple heinous atrocities have brought Palestinians nothing but hardship, that will not cause Palestinians to embrace Israelis. But it may cause Palestinians to reject Hamas’s strategy of terrorism and genocidal war.” — Cliff May, FDD Founder and President

“While Secretary of State Antony Blinken travels across the Middle East talking about a two-state solution and a Palestinian state, the main impediment to such schemes remains the same: a radicalized Palestinian population that supports terrorism against Israel instead of peacemaking.” — Richard Goldberg, FDD Senior Advisor

“Palestinians are living in another reality — one in which Hamas did not commit atrocities on October 7 and one in which Hamas did not march the Palestinian national project off a cliff. This perception gap will further complicate Israel’s day-after plans.” — David May, FDD Research Manager and Senior Research Analyst

Hamas More Popular Than Abbas’s Fatah Party
According to the poll, only seven percent of Gazans blamed Hamas for their suffering. Seventy-one percent of all Palestinians supported Hamas’s decision to attack Israel on October 7 — up 14 points among Gazans and down 11 points among West Bank Palestinians compared to three months ago. Fifty-nine percent of all Palestinians thought Hamas should rule Gaza, and 70 percent were satisfied with the role Hamas has played during the war.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

Hamas releases proof-of-life video of hostage. Hamas is, in fact, still a bunch of horrible mofos.


User avatar
Cap
Posts: 9781
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Cap »

Shabazz wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 3:50 pm
Cap wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 12:10 pm
Nodack wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 11:54 am

I don’t think Israel sees it the same way you guys do. When the Germans bombed the UK, how much aid did they deliver to the UK? When we bombed Japan, how much aid did we send? How much aid has Putin sent to Ukraine?
This is Israel’s own occupied territory. Being an occupying power comes with responsibilities.
Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005.
They’re effectively an occupying power now, especially if they’re committed to the destruction of the current regime.
Eye moss small nl lolled egg WAIL a case ace when ya.

User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Shabazz »

Mori Chu wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 1:04 am
Shabazz wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 3:50 pm
This will sound callous, but is fundamentally true: If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it could. But it doesn't want to, so it doesn't.
It sounds really, really naive, not callous.
It's not naive. And regarding the second half of that statement which you left out, I'd refer you to the Jewish populations of Israel's neighbors in the region if you want to see what a culture being wiped out of a country (or countries) looks like.

Image

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 9701
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Nodack »

A terrorist organization that is also the leaders of the Palestinian people who mostly approve of the Hamas attack on Israel.

Israel should be better? They have shown restraint for many decades. We lost 3000 people when terrorists took out the Twin Towers. We took out Iraq and Afghanistan over that and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

What makes our people more valuable than Israel’s? We didn’t want to get into WWII. Then Japan attacked and we were in. We didn’t stop until their cities filled with women and children were burned to the ground and they finally agreed to surrender.

I guess I am saying we are condemning Israel for doing something we would have done many decades earlier if it were us being attacked.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Shabazz »

Nodack wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 11:47 am
A terrorist organization that is also the leaders of the Palestinian people who mostly approve of the Hamas attack on Israel.

Israel should be better? They have shown restraint for many decades. We lost 3000 people when terrorists took out the Twin Towers. We took out Iraq and Afghanistan over that and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

What makes our people more valuable than Israel’s? We didn’t want to get into WWII. Then Japan attacked and we were in. We didn’t stop until their cities filled with women and children were burned to the ground and they finally agreed to surrender.

I guess I am saying we are condemning Israel for doing something we would have done many decades earlier if it were us being attacked.
I was about to post this, which is basically exactly what you’re saying:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6LnmZ3s ... BiNWFlZA==

User avatar
Kryptonic
Posts: 3721
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:08 pm
Location: AZ
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Kryptonic »

Shabazz wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 11:56 am
Nodack wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 11:47 am
A terrorist organization that is also the leaders of the Palestinian people who mostly approve of the Hamas attack on Israel.

Israel should be better? They have shown restraint for many decades. We lost 3000 people when terrorists took out the Twin Towers. We took out Iraq and Afghanistan over that and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

What makes our people more valuable than Israel’s? We didn’t want to get into WWII. Then Japan attacked and we were in. We didn’t stop until their cities filled with women and children were burned to the ground and they finally agreed to surrender.

I guess I am saying we are condemning Israel for doing something we would have done many decades earlier if it were us being attacked.
I was about to post this, which is basically exactly what you’re saying:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6LnmZ3s ... BiNWFlZA==
Good points and it’s true…. We’d nuke the crap out of Mexico if a cartel did that to us.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 28280
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Split T »

Maybe it’s just a matter of more coverage, but it feels like civilians have been targeted more in Palestine than in Iraq or Afghanistan. I wasn’t a fan of those wars either. I also keep seeing stuff where Israel tells Palestinians where to go to be safe and then they bomb that area…or aid is delivered and then Israeli forces open fire. I don’t recall any of that happening in Afghanistan or Iraq, but maybe I’m wrong…I was young and not as concerned about foreign affairs then.

The video did make me think, but it mostly makes me think our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were worse than I thought.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

Biden proposes a peace plan for Israel / Palestine.


User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 9701
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Nodack »

I approve of that message.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

Hopefully we can all agree that it would be good for both sides in the conflict to cease fire, release all hostages, and try to negotiate some sort of peace and stability.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 9701
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Nodack »

I wonder how many times that has been said in the past 70 years.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

It looks like Israel may refuse to negotiate a ceasefire (again). Little surprise when (a) their President depends on the unending war to stay in office; and (b) their army and leaders want to kill all the Palestinians out of bloodlust.


User avatar
Shabazz
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Shabazz »

Mori Chu wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2024 11:22 am
It looks like Israel may refuse to negotiate a ceasefire (again). Little surprise when (a) their President depends on the unending war to stay in office; and (b) their army and leaders want to kill all the Palestinians out of bloodlust.
How else will they get the baby blood for their rituals to control the media and the banks, right? JFC.

Putting aside the horrifically antisemitic post and the fact that Hamas was the one that rejected the last several ceasefire offers (and the fact that they didn’t abide by the last one), what is unreasonable about wanting 1. the hostages returned, 2. safety for his citizens and 3. the removal of (the terrorist group) Hamas from power?

With that, I think after 17 years on the .nets it might be time for me to call it quits here. Go Suns!

Online
User avatar
Mori Chu
Posts: 24375
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am
Mood:

Re: Israel / Palestine

Post by Mori Chu »

Hi Shabazz, firstly I just want to say that I really hope you won't leave the site or call it quits. I value having you here and enjoy the conversations we have here. And I apologize for my post and for offending you. I hope we can find a way to talk about hoops and other topics without you feeling a need to leave the site.

Having said that, I strongly disagree with your characterization of my post as antisemitic. I have not once made criticism of Judaism, of Jews, nor of Israeli people. In my posts criticizing Israel's actions, I try to be very careful to make clear that my criticisms are of Israel's government, especially Bibi Netanyahu, and of their military and its actions. I bear no ill will toward any Jewish or Israeli people and don't think it's fair of you to call my post antisemitic. In particular you bring up "baby blood" and "rituals to control the media and the banks" which I absolutely have not and would not ever say. It is unfair to bring up things like that and imply that I said them or think horrible things like that.

Note that in the offending message I said, "their (the Israeli) army and leaders want to kill all the Palestinians." Not, "the Israeli people want to kill all the Palestinians," nor anything whatsoever about Jews. No country's government is shielded from criticism just because they happen to belong to some particular faith.

I am not trying to get you to agree with my statement about killing Palestinians; it's clear that you don't. But it isn't bigoted to criticize the military after there have been tons of videos of their soldiers celebrating and laughing as they torture and kill innocent civilians. And it's not antisemitic to criticize the clearly corrupt leader of Israel who has directly ordered strikes that have killed tens of thousands of innocent people with at best questionable justification.

I want to reiterate that I do apologize for the strongly worded post and really hope that you will stay here on the site. If my posts in this thread are not to your liking, you could mute me, or choose not to visit this thread. And I will try to make more even-keeled posts that are less likely to offend. Thanks.

Locked