Abortion

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Mori Chu
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Abortion

Post by Mori Chu »

The Supreme Court is hearing arguments today in a case against the Texas law that allows people to sue those who help/facilitate abortions. The case is seen as a big step toward whether the Supreme Court will allow the precedent of Roe v. Wade to be weakened or eventually struck down.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... e-updates/

I am pro-choice and hope that the Texas law is struck down. There's another case coming on Dec 1 where the Supreme Court will discuss a Mississippi abortion restriction law. That's the one where, if SCOTUS upholds Mississippi's law, it would effectively nullify Roe. So that'll be interesting.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/supreme ... dec-1.html

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Indy
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Re: Abortion

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The way the questions are going today, I can't see many supporting the Texas law. Already Thomas and Kavanaugh are ripping it up, pointing out it would set a precedent for any state to pass any law and let citizens enforce it for any amount. So NY could pass a law that let "outraged" citizens sue a seller of firearms for $1M. Or a user of firearms. Or whatever they want. If those two are already ripping it up, there is no way Texas will get more than Alito to support it.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mori Chu »

Yeah, it's a law that seems unlikely to hold up. And regardless of one's views on abortion, it seems good to stop our system of law and law enforcement to be farmed out to vigilantes and citizen-against-citizen lawsuits.

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In2ition
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Re: Abortion

Post by In2ition »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:26 pm
Yeah, it's a law that seems unlikely to hold up. And regardless of one's views on abortion, it seems good to stop our system of law and law enforcement to be farmed out to vigilantes and citizen-against-citizen lawsuits.
We disagree on abortion, but I don't disagree here.
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Nodack
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Re: Abortion

Post by Nodack »

I don’t think the abortion thing will ever be settled. I find my myself a little torn on the subject. There are so many variables and ethical considerations involved.

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In2ition
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Re: Abortion

Post by In2ition »

Arguments for those that have suffered from rape and incest are used often, and that's understandable. It was supposed to be rarely used, but the argument makes it sound like hundreds of thousands of girls/women in the US are forced to carry these unwanted pregnancies after being raped and through incest. We know that's not even close to being true. So it's being framed that way so anyone that's against abortion is a monster that's unsympathetic to those victims and want to force them all to carry the memories of their attack through to term.

I looked up the numbers, and this is what I found.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/
Abstract
Objective: We attempted to determine the national rape-related pregnancy rate and provide descriptive characteristics of pregnancies that result from rape.

Study design: A national probability sample of 4008 adult American women took part in a 3-year longitudinal survey that assessed the prevalence and incidence of rape and related physical and mental health outcomes.

Results: The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator. Only 11.7% of these victims received immediate medical attention after the assault, and 47.1% received no medical attention related to the rape. A total 32.4% of these victims did not discover they were pregnant until they had already entered the second trimester; 32.2% opted to keep the infant whereas 50% underwent abortion and 5.9% placed the infant for adoption; an additional 11.8% had spontaneous abortion.

Conclusions: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence. As we address the epidemic of unintended pregnancies in the United States, greater attention and effort should be aimed at preventing and identifying unwanted pregnancies that result from sexual victimization.


32K is a tragically large number. I think a case can be made to certainly justify those 16K abortions.
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Indy
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Re: Abortion

Post by Indy »

Those are only reported rapes. Some quick searches show that <33% of rapes are reported.

but that is beside the point, because it isn't up to the government to tell you what to do with your own body.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mori Chu »

If abortion is murder, why are 16k murders okay? Why do those innocent human lives deserve to be put to death but not others?

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In2ition
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Re: Abortion

Post by In2ition »

Indy wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:24 am
Those are only reported rapes. Some quick searches show that <33% of rapes are reported.

but that is beside the point, because it isn't up to the government to tell you what to do with your own body.
If you consider the fetus to not have any rights or even a person at all, then this seems like it's reasonable. The problem is that the law doesn't seem to apply equally, imo(obviously I'm not a judge). If the mother wants to keep the fetus, but someone else kills the fetus, they are charged with murder, no? I've heard of cases where the pregnant mother is shot and the perp is charged with double homicide. So it's considered a life in one scenario, but not a life in another. Is it a life only if the mother says it is? The father doesn't have a say, because it's not being carried by them? We already know that the fetus has no say one way or the other.
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In2ition
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Re: Abortion

Post by In2ition »

Mori Chu wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:32 am
If abortion is murder, why are 16k murders okay? Why do those innocent human lives deserve to be put to death but not others?
These are good questions. I'm not saying that 16K is ok, but I do recognize how you are trying to get me to logically paint myself into a corner. If you make exception for traumatic cases, such as outside of the control of the mother in rape and incest, you would certainly cut down the number of abortions greatly. After that, the next thing would be to decide when a life becomes a life and therefore needs to be protected by society. We don't allow mothers to decide to kill their 3 month old, 1 month old, or even 1 day old babies. So the only difference is that they are out of the womb?
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Mori Chu
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mori Chu »

I know this is a really tough and emotional issue to talk about. And I am not trying to trick you or paint you into a corner. I just wanted to understand your thinking. It seems to me that if a fetus is a real live baby equal to one that is born, it isn't that baby's fault if the mother got assaulted or raped. So why should there should be exceptions and cases where abortion is legal? I'm not sure why one would grant those exceptions if you truly think they are people being murdered. Why not just push for a complete and total ban on all abortions if that is how one feels?

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In2ition
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Re: Abortion

Post by In2ition »

I'd be a hypocrite if I felt that there was a difference between the type of fetus. I am against the shedding of innocent blood of humans, in any form. I want to be consistent on this. The unborn have no voice to speak up for themselves, they are innocent in this, no matter the circumstance. I also don't believe that someone else shouldn't be deciding whether they die. You know what they say, "Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."
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