Russia/Ukraine

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Mori Chu
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Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

I just figured we should have a thread for topics that relate to Russia and US/Russia relations. Seems like things are tense with Ukraine so this could be a topic to discuss.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia

Post by Mori Chu »

To kick us off, here is what Tucker Carlson thinks about Ukraine and Russia:


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Superbone
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Re: Russia

Post by Superbone »

Tucker seems to be totally confused a lot.
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Nodack
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Re: Russia

Post by Nodack »

Tucker is confused on why we would be allies with the Ukraine over Russia? They have more oil? He’s not confused at all. He knows exactly what he is doing. Trump started the narrative and Republicans have gone right along with it.

Didn’t the Ukraine have a bunch of nukes after The USSR broke up? Didn’t the US lobby and convince them to get rid of all their nukes after we promised to protect them if they did? We fought how many wars trying to stop communism from spreading and now Republicans are promoting it? So now we are supposed to side with Russia’s take over of the Ukraine and just abandon the Ukraine and break yet another agreement? Republicans hate Communists and repeatedly call Dems commies as an insult and yet this is their stance? I realize this is just Tucker but, he’s not alone. Trumps entire election team in the first go around was pro Russian.

Trump is pro Putin. Refused to enact sanctions against them after Congress unanimously enacted them. Trump was actively trying to get Putin to allow him to build a Trump Tower in Moscow right up until the first election. We have all seen his interactions with him. Trumps son bragged about Trump getting all the funding he needed from Russia.

Manafort? The head of his election team was secretly a lobbyist for the pro Russian side in the Ukraine and was busted for it. Pardoned by Trump.


Rex Tillerson, CEO of EXXON signed a multi billion dollar deal with Russia that would only go into effect IF the sanctions were lifted. Putin personally pinned a medal on Rex. Trump is elected and makes him Secretary of State.

How many Trump election team members claimed to have zero ties to Russia and then were busted for lying about it?

The Ukraine extortion thing. How many prominent Republicans were part of that? The lead Republican defending Trump in the first impeachment trial was Nunez and was later found to be waist deep in the scandal himself.

It would appear the new GOP is pro Russia anti Democracy.

Majorie Green just announced she was in favor of ending Democracy in America.

‘National divorce:’ Congresswoman openly advocates end to American democracy


‘Slow-motion insurrection’: Democracy experts alarmed over GOP takeover of election machinery
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/s ... -machinery
“It’s not clear that the Republican Party is willing to accept defeat anymore,” said Steven Levitsky, a Harvard political scientist and co-author of the book “How Democracies Die.” “The party itself has become an anti-democratic force.”

Republicans are plotting to destroy democracy from within
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -democracy

Republicans want "18 more months of chaos" — followed by the end of democracy
https://www.salon.com/2021/07/08/republ ... democracy/
Rep. Chip Roy said it out loud, but the GOP's plan is no secret: Bring democracy to a standstill, then end it

January 6, 2025 could be the date American democracy dies. Mark it on your calendar.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 191699001/

American democracy is tottering. It’s not clear Americans care.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... en-america

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

Have they invaded yet?

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Nodack
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Nodack »

Ever play chicken? That’s what we are playing at this moment.

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Nodack
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Nodack »

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... en-warning
President Biden’s announcement on Friday that he was “convinced” Russian President Vladimir Putin had “made the decision” to invade Ukraine was reportedly based on U.S. intelligence that indicated the Kremlin ordered Russian military units to move forward with an invasion of Ukraine, according to multiple reports.

The New York Times and CNN, citing U.S. officials and various sources, reported on Sunday that the U.S. obtained intelligence last week illustrating that the Kremlin had ordered the military to proceed with an invasion of Ukraine, which prompted Biden’s statement that he was convinced Putin had made the decision to launch an incursion.

The Kremlin's order, however, is not permanent, according to CBS News. A U.S. official told the network that Putin can still change the directive.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

I just don't get why Russia/Putin would go through with it. They aren't militarily strong enough to take on all the various allies of Ukraine. Why get into a nasty war? So they can maybe claim a small piece of Ukranian land as their own? I kinda think they are just posturing, just wanting to threaten Ukraine to get attention, to cause UKR to be afraid, and to see what kind of response other countries make. It looks like Putin and Biden have agreed to a summit. I sure hope we don't make any concessions to them. You don't let somebody threaten you and then give them rewards for it (such as promising not to let UKR into NATO or whatever).

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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Indy »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:40 am
I just don't get why Russia/Putin would go through with it. They aren't militarily strong enough to take on all the various allies of Ukraine. Why get into a nasty war? So they can maybe claim a small piece of Ukranian land as their own? I kinda think they are just posturing, just wanting to threaten Ukraine to get attention, to cause UKR to be afraid, and to see what kind of response other countries make. It looks like Putin and Biden have agreed to a summit. I sure hope we don't make any concessions to them. You don't let somebody threaten you and then give them rewards for it (such as promising not to let UKR into NATO or whatever).
Which allies are you talking about? NATO has already said they wouldn't commit troops to defending non-NATO members.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

Well, here we go. The invasion of Ukraine has begun.


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Indy
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Indy »

The US needs to stay out of it.

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Nodack
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Nodack »

I’m torn. ‘We’(China, Russia, US, Europe) all promised to protect them from attack if they agreed to give up their nukes. They gave up their nukes. Now they are about to be invaded and ‘we’ are not going to protect them.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

I am not a fan of war. And I don't think in general that the US should be the world's police force. But Ukraine is an ally, and they're about to be invaded by an enemy nation and possibly taken over or seized outright. There's a big difference between invading Iraq because maybe they might have WMDs or bad guys there, and protecting an ally nation when they're in trouble. And I would favor non-military responses as much as possible, such as sanctions and other squeezing of Russian oligarchs and their various US assets. Make it too costly for Putin to keep this up.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Mori Chu »

UK and Germany are both sanctioning Russia for invading Ukraine. Germany, in particular, has announced the suspension of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline between GER <-> RUS which will hurt Russia economically.

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Indy
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Indy »

Mori Chu wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:43 pm
I am not a fan of war. And I don't think in general that the US should be the world's police force. But Ukraine is an ally, and they're about to be invaded by an enemy nation and possibly taken over or seized outright. There's a big difference between invading Iraq because maybe they might have WMDs or bad guys there, and protecting an ally nation when they're in trouble. And I would favor non-military responses as much as possible, such as sanctions and other squeezing of Russian oligarchs and their various US assets. Make it too costly for Putin to keep this up.
They are not, as far as I can tell.

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Indy
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:24 pm
I’m torn. ‘We’(China, Russia, US, Europe) all promised to protect them from attack if they agreed to give up their nukes. They gave up their nukes. Now they are about to be invaded and ‘we’ are not going to protect them.
Yeah, I don't know how to solve this. Russia is posturing to make sure that Ukraine, Georgia, Bosnia, etc. don't join NATO and freeze them out. And they want to sell their natural gas to all of Europe and keep making their money so their people can starve but the oligarchs and Putin keep making billions.

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Nodack
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Nodack »

Putin has invaded now. He sent his troops into pro Russian areas under the guise of ‘protecting them’ and has made agreements with them. He will say this isn’t an invasion but, the world knows that’s bs. At the very least the world should sanction the hell out of Russia and hurt them financially as much as possible.

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In2ition
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by In2ition »

Did this happen on 2/22/22?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
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Indy
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:00 am
Putin has invaded now. He sent his troops into pro Russian areas under the guise of ‘protecting them’ and has made agreements with them. He will say this isn’t an invasion but, the world knows that’s bs. At the very least the world should sanction the hell out of Russia and hurt them financially as much as possible.
He invaded 8 years ago and we didn't do anything. Under 3 presidents, we didn't do anything.

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Nodack
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Re: Russia/Ukraine

Post by Nodack »

Yes, they took a piece of Ukraine and we did nothing. Then he annexed Belarus and we watched so now they feel free to take the rest of Ukraine while we do nothing. Sort of reminds me of Hitler starting WWII and everyone appeasing him trying to avoid confrontation.

Why Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons — and what that means in an invasion by Russia

Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.

Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

The narrative in Ukraine, publicly is: We had the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal, we gave it up for this signed piece of paper, and look what happened.

And it really doesn't look good for the international non-proliferation regime. Because if you have a country that disarms and then becomes a target of such a threat and a victim of such a threat at the hands of a nuclear-armed country, it just sends a really wrong signal to other countries that might want to pursue nuclear weapons.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/1 ... o-diplomat
A Ukrainian diplomat has reportedly warned Kyiv may be forced to acquire nuclear weapons to safeguard the country’s security if NATO does not accede to its membership demand amid spiralling tensions with neighbouring Russia.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/20/worl ... ament.html
In a speech at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine criticized Western countries for not living up to promises they made when the Soviet Union fell, when they persuaded Ukraine to give up what was then the world’s third largest arsenal of nuclear weapons.

“We gave away the capability for nothing,” said Andriy Zahorodniuk, a former defense minister of Ukraine. Referring to the security assurances Ukraine won in exchange for its nuclear arms, he added: “Now, every time somebody offers us to sign a strip of paper, the response is, ‘Thank you very much. We already had one of those some time ago.’”


We signed a paper to keep Iran nuke free along with most f the world powers and we were the only country to pull out five years later. The US cannot be trusted in any agreement with anyone.

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