Terror attack in Paris

[Cap]

Ohio man arrested for alleged plot to attack US Capitol

And he can now say to us, "You know my name."

[Ghost]

This is an interesting twist to the idea that images of the prophet are forbidden by the Koran (spoiler alert: they are not forbidden by the Koran at all, which I guess should be obvious if you look at any older Islamic art, but considering how religious texts like to contradict themselves, I always figured it must be hidden in there somewhere).

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/the- ... e-prophet/

[Nodack]

I understand you were trying to "defend the Muslims," perhaps in worry that there would be people on the forum coming in and blaming this on the religion, not the perpetrators. But that never happened. Also, what is the value in rehashing the conversation about the entire history of Muslim/Western conflict every time something happens in today's world? There's none.

The point of rehashing the history is to point out that the two religions have been butting heads forever. They are in competition with each other for the worlds souls. Kind of like Democrats and Republicans. There has been lots of violence between the two religions dating back forever. They have done bad things to Christians. Christians have done bad things to them. Recent history has been filled with some of the worst violence from both sides. There is no innocent side now or then.

I wasn't worried that somebody would blame it on their religion. Their religion is just another cult to me. I at least partially blame it on the religion. Sane people have toned down each religion and coexist fine, but some twist the violent parts and meanings towards the extremist side. I'm trying to understand how we can get these two different civilizations to coexist. That's where I am trying to go. We can condemn the attacks and say what a shame it is and mourn the victims, which is great and respectful, but accomplishes nothing, not that we are going to accomplish anything on a basketball forum in the politics folder, but it means something to me talk with other somewhat sane people about events in the world. Our response as a civilization to these attacks is to go get the bastards. France is getting more militant towards Muslims now and they were already banning head gear. Anti Islamic violence is way up in France now.

I think everybody is basically the same everywhere. Take two total religious families, one Christian family in the Bible belt of the US and one Muslim family in a Mideast deeply strict Muslim area. They each have a child, but they switch those children at birth and nobody knows. Those children would grow up believing what everybody else believes around them believes. The baby born from the Christian family could end up being a Muslim terrorist and the Muslim baby raised Christian might join the Army to get some payback from 9/11. They were products of their surroundings and not genes.

I look at the situation and see a pendulum. On one end is the Jack Muslim who is sort of a Muslim, but barely practices it. In the middle is the moderate Muslim. He is devout, but can coexist with all religions. He may not like Christians that much, but has no plans to cause violence against anybody. On the other end is the extremist Muslim. He thinks all non Muslim believers deserve to die and even jack Muslims. I want the pendulum to swing to the Jack Muslim side. I think the actions of the West in recent history has pushed the pendulum towards the extremists side. I think the actions of Muslim terrorists have made the West's own pendulum move as well towards the kill em all side. I want to focus on things that make the pendulum go the other way, not just here on this basketball/politics forum, but as a civilization. As they say, an eye for an eye makes everybody blind.

Another similar story to your's Ghost that goes into even greater detail.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30814555

Some Muslims are kind of OK with depictions and some consider it punishable by death. It depends on where they are on the pendulum.

[Dan H]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/01 ... -internet/

[Nodack]

http://americablog.com/2013/04/gay-marr ... tions.html



http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/05/3 ... -violence/

[Cap]

Any chance American Christian Conservative groups will denounce the extreme violence that's being done in the name of their cause?

Doubt it. They'll be too busy denouncing Muslims for supposedly failing to denounce Islamic terrorism.

If they do denounce it, they'll probably do it by denouncing the homosexuals who committed this false flag operation.

[Dan H]

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/ ... ck-outrage

A graphic photo (below) of Wilfred de Bruijn, who claims he was assaulted in a Muslim part of Paris, has provoked shock and outrage.

Hmm, Christian anti-gay demonstrations in a Muslim sector of Paris - where even the French police do not venture except en masse? Call me dubious. See here: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3305/ ... o-go-zones

Now as for the NYT . . .

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... law-uganda

So we have (1) person who is primarily responsible, it would seem. I denounce him. He's wrong, and he's doing terrible things. I've now officially gone further than the majority of Muslims in the world.

As far as the Think Progress article, I have a couple of thoughts.

First and foremost, it looks like most of those churches are independent churches not affiliated with a larger organization. Which generally happens when you have people with ideas outside of the mainstream; the church will splinter away and go off and do their own thing. Usually in a strip mall or something.

Secondly, Think Progress actually did something pretty good with one of their quotes.

I will reproduce it here.

Dennis Leatherman shouts, “Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea. But it grieves the Holy Spirit. It violates Scripture.”

And that's all you need to know. Christians are not supposed to differentiate between sin; gluttony and lying are just as big a sin as homosexuality or lusting after your neighbor's Ferrari. Scripture teaches us to overcome our own sins and try to be an example to others.

The fact that you see the same morality inherent in what ISIS did, and what Iran does, to gays, to the words of Christians, is really rather sad.

BTW, here's something my church is focused on.

http://www.wesleyan.org/522/us-state-de ... operations

[Nodack]

Your Church sounds Moderate Dan. From your Church's site.

We do not, cannot, and will not endorse homosexual activity as a lifestyle; just as we cannot, do not, and will not endorse all other kinds of behaviors that displease God. But we also do not, cannot, and will not endorse condemning, hate-filled, self-righteous attitudes toward those in the gay community. This type of attitude, all too common among evangelical Christians, serves only to drive people farther away from the God who loves them and the community where they can find Him. Jesus was known as a “friend of sinners” (Luke 7:34), and so we invite Wesleyans to reflect His heart to all persons who are far from God, including those in the gay community. We will not compromise biblical truth and we will not endorse homosexual activity, but we encourage our churches to be the kinds of communities where a homosexual person can feel wanted and loved and valued and where they can be introduced to the love of Christ and nurtured in Him. We require our churches to hold unashamedly to the biblical teaching against homosexual behavior, but we also ask our churches to provide generously the sort of teaching, support, ministry, counseling, and hospitality that can be used by God to bring His redemptive love to those who need it most.

I doubt I would feel comfortable being gay in a church that considers my being gay a sin. They would be trying to counsel the gay out of me and pray the gay away. I would imagine a gay person wouldn't feel like they were a sinner that needed they gayness to be exorcised from them. They love another person who is the same sex. Love is love. I would just find a church that accepts me for who I am without trying to change me.

There are extremes on all sides of everything. Religion in general has a problem with gays. The extremist Christians and Muslims think gays would be better dead. The Moderates tolerate them. I couldn't care less what other people do. As a musician I have played a few gay weddings in the past year after never doing one ever. That tells me that times are changing.

The fact that you see the same morality inherent in what ISIS did, and what Iran does, to gays, to the words of Christians, is really rather sad.

Like I said, there is a pendulum and we all fit somewhere on the pendulum. Somebody has been doing a lot more than just talking. This shows the stats of violence against gays in the US. It doesn't say if those responsible were Christians, Atheists or terrorists, but it does show that there IS anti gay violence happening in America and lots of people been killed. The voices showing the most hate from what I can tell are from the religious right. It makes sense that they would be the ones I would suspect doing the violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ted_States

We managed to turn this into a Gay thread instead of the Paris massacre thread. BTW Dan, I hope you don't take these posts personally. We open up here and push each other's buttons a little bit and it's not always pretty. It's the nature of things when you have these types of conversations. It's obvious I rub you the wrong way sometimes. People have all kinds of different perspectives on things that rarely line up with everybody else's perspective and like we see around the world things can get ugly. We are tame here and I would gladly be the first to buy you a beer the next time you get to PHX at a Phx-suns.net gathering. In real life I'm the easiest guy to get along with I know.

[Ghost]

I am kind of curious, Dan, since we've been agreeing so long...exactly what sort of teaching, support, ministry, and counseling does your church provide to homosexuals? I'm mostly interested in the counseling part.

Us disagreeing was inevitable. But I still like you.

[Ghost]

Nodack, I don't want to ignore your long post, but I don't have it in me to respond line by line. Yes, there have been conflicts between the West and Islamic nations for a very long time. Frankly, it's no longer relevant today. We can't do anything about it. Unless there were something that one side or the other could do to apologize for crimes of the past (and make the other side believe it), we are where we are, and there is no changing that. So the important issues in our world are those that happen today.

The history is important, yes. But rehashing it after every attack is useless, and I would say it is distracting from the real concern, which is what is going on today.

[Dan H]

I am kind of curious, Dan, since we've been agreeing so long...exactly what sort of teaching, support, ministry, and counseling does your church provide to homosexuals? I'm mostly interested in the counseling part.

Us disagreeing was inevitable. But I still like you.

Nothing in particular, it's not like we have classes or anything. We just try to treat everyone the same. A friend of mine's wife left him for another woman and stopped coming, but that's more from the whole divorce aspect rather than being gay. The times she's come back for kid's programs or that sort of thing everyone has treated her like they did before. The situation is more sad for her two daughters losing a mom and dad at home than the lifestyle she chose, IMO.

Honestly, I've been a member of my church for over 10 years and in all that time I can't recall single sermon or lesson about homosexuality. It's just not a big deal on the radar for mainstream Christian churches; the main focus is and always has been what we can do for others and working on our own personal relationships with Christ.

[Dan H]

Nodack, I don't want to ignore your long post, but I don't have it in me to respond line by line. Yes, there have been conflicts between the West and Islamic nations for a very long time. Frankly, it's no longer relevant today. We can't do anything about it. Unless there were something that one side or the other could do to apologize for crimes of the past (and make the other side believe it), we are where we are, and there is no changing that. So the important issues in our world are those that happen today.

The history is important, yes. But rehashing it after every attack is useless, and I would say it is distracting from the real concern, which is what is going on today.

It also begs the question of how far back we should go. If we look back 20 years, why not 40? If 80 why not 100?

When Thomas Jefferson formed the Marines and sent them to fight the Caliphate of Tripoli, should he have just left the Muslims be? Should Charles Martel have not defended Europe against Arab invasion in 732?

The Crusades are thrown in our faces a lot as excuses for why Islam distrusts the West, but the first Crusade came about after portions of the Byzantine Empire were invaded and its Christian populace were persecuted or killed.

At some point some party has to take the step of waving off and saying 'forget it.' I'm all in favor of just blowing off the Middle East, personally. Pull out our bases, tell the Saudis thanks for nothing, and use Western Hemisphere energy sources exclusively. Extremely limit incoming travel from Middle Eastern nations - no more long-term visas, period. They don't like us in their countries, great, we will leave, and they don't need to come visit ours.

We are, I believe, importing less than ten percent of our oil at this point so it shouldn't take much to push that to nothing. Now, I suspect that whatever bad things happen in the region will still be blamed on the US and Israel, because we're convenient boogeymen for tyrants who prefer basking in oil luxury rather than building modern secular nations.

Oh, and lest we forget - we can stop sending foreign aid money to places like Egypt, as well. It's better spent here at home on a multitude of other things.

[Indy]

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=32&t=6

Looks like we import a third of our oil.

[Dan H]

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=32&t=6

Looks like we import a third of our oil.

That >10% may have been the percentage from the Middle East; we get a ton from Canada and Mexico.

[Indy]

From the same site, it says 56% of imported oil comes from OPEC. And also Venezuela. Both are places we shouldn't be getting any oil.

[Nodack]

Nodack, I don't want to ignore your long post, but I don't have it in me to respond line by line. Yes, there have been conflicts between the West and Islamic nations for a very long time. Frankly, it's no longer relevant today. We can't do anything about it. Unless there were something that one side or the other could do to apologize for crimes of the past (and make the other side believe it), we are where we are, and there is no changing that. So the important issues in our world are those that happen today.

The history is important, yes. But rehashing it after every attack is useless, and I would say it is distracting from the real concern, which is what is going on today.

I just wanted to drive home the point that no side is innocent in the big picture and was hoping I could get someone here to admit that. You did, so I am good. Like I say often, I hate the blame game and prefer to work on solutions instead. I know we all don't think of all Muslims as being terrorists, but there are a lot of Americans that do just like we lump a lot of different people into categories. All Muslims are terrorists. All Republicans like war. All Democrats live on welfare. All gays are this and that.

I think ALL people are the same at birth and turn out the way they do mostly from their experiences and surroundings. I think even the most brutal terrorist started out as a cute innocent baby who was raised to hate the West. Maybe his town was bombed and his family killed by an American bomb. Maybe his brother was innocent and taken to Guantanamo and tortured and he vows revenge. Maybe he believes in his heart that God wants Sharia law and he is gong to kill anybody that stands in his and his other ISIS members way of achieving that goal. I can't read their minds, but there is supposedly around 200,000 ISIS members now. As a civilization I would like to figure out how to stop that trend. Our method so far has been to kill them all. So far that approach has only created more terrorists, so I don't think that approach is getting it done by itself.

I think we need to find a way to move the pendulum the other way somehow. I am all for fighting back against ISIS, but it isn't going to stop the violence and hatred. I am interested in your opinions on how we should be going about as a civilization/country to stop this problem.

[Nodack]

We import a lot of oil and yet we are the leading producer of oil in the world. Obviously we used a hell of a lot more than everybody else does.

[Ghost]

I think the only way to TRULY fight and eventually beat terrorism is through education...not so much about the West and how we aren't as bad as we seem to them, but about how to pull themselves out of their current mess (which they may or may not recognize as a mess). The only way I can see them embracing democracy (which is the only way they'd be able to change their governments for good). Considering the cost this would be to us (immense, and very long term), and the fact that we are dealing governments and groups who are often actively opposed to the idea, I think it's impossible, or at least very nearly so. And as long as we are fighting, even moderate Muslims who don't support terror will still view us as the enemy, so how do we get past that?

I have no idea.

[Indy]

Getting out of that part of the world would be a good start. Including Israel.

[Nodack]

That's a great idea Indy and I have thought about that as well except for one thing, oil. If we completely pulled out of that part of the world what would happen? Our presence there is what is holding back a lot of bad things from happening.

Here is a bunch of good articles asking the same questions and supplying answers.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ame ... east-11242

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... LruzFvXnOY

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/201 ... inion.html

http://jah.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/1/208.full