A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

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SDC
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A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by SDC »

has stockpiles.

http://www.breitbart.com/california/201 ... tockpiles/

what went wrong in california and what went right for arizona?

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

California is sending a tremendous amount of water out into the ocean for the delta smelt. Unsure on how much but it's not a small amount.

Edit - wow.

According to Tulare County supervisor Allen Ishida, "California was forced to let 660,000 acrefeet of its freshwater supplies run out to the ocean. That was enough water to supply the entire Silicon Valley for two years."

http://spectator.org/articles/40982/emp ... le-drought

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SDC
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by SDC »

after leading the BDS style boycott on SB 1070, dont sell them water, Arizona.

or sell them water, but at steep rates.

http://www.breitbart.com/california/201 ... ting-rice/

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Mori Chu
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Mori Chu »

I was reading (don't have a source handy but could try to find one) that CA uses a ton of water on agriculture. There are apparently tons of water being used to water avocados and almonds and oranges and such things. Not that I don't want those crops, but I think maybe there are rules in the state laws that are meant to make it easy to run a business growing those crops at low cost to keep the production here in CA.

Here's one water breakdown I just found:

http://users.humboldt.edu/ogayle/hist383/Water.html

And another article from the SJ Mercury News:

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_2 ... ound-state

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Indy
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Indy »

I also read that Nestle water is bottled there and there have been no restrictions on them (or any businesses), just citizens.

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

Yes, their contract has been up for several years but the government is still allowing them to do so. Because of the location, it's a Federal matter.

http://rt.com/usa/172764-nestle-califor ... ing-plant/

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LazarusLong
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by LazarusLong »

Arizona, specifically metro Phoenix, has been practicing "water banking" for more than a decade. There's also been a very cooperative partnership between the Forest Service, the federal government and Salt River Project to operate reservoirs on the Salt and Verde rivers and to manage the watersheds in the mountains from which snowmelt and rain feed into the reservoirs. Tucson has been practicing water conservation measures since the mid 70s, including alternate day watering and use of gray and non-potable water for landscape and golf course watering.
Window is open again ... blue skies ahead?

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Nodack
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Nodack »

And those California people think they are so smart. :D

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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Ghost »

Mori Chu wrote:I was reading (don't have a source handy but could try to find one) that CA uses a ton of water on agriculture. There are apparently tons of water being used to water avocados and almonds and oranges and such things. Not that I don't want those crops, but I think maybe there are rules in the state laws that are meant to make it easy to run a business growing those crops at low cost to keep the production here in CA.

Here's one water breakdown I just found:

http://users.humboldt.edu/ogayle/hist383/Water.html

And another article from the SJ Mercury News:

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_2 ... ound-state
I also don't have a source handy, but I will try to find it. It was an article talking about exactly this, making the point that the actual gallons used to make something like avocados and almonds may seem ridiculously high, but in terms of actual value, they are in the top tier for human consumption. Gallons of water per serving of almonds sounds ridiculously high (I think it was somewhere around 20 gallons -- insane)...but it's on the low end when it comes to crops overall. The numbers go up quickly with other crops, and when you get to livestock, it skyrockets. And even though 2/3 of the world's almonds are from California, they are still far from the biggest users of water.

I really need to find that article. But I need to sleep more. But, before I do that...

Other people have blamed the lack of reservoirs on the drought. Well, you need water to fill the reservoirs...and if there's no water....

If I had money to invest, I would be putting it into desalination right now. That's the next big industry to explode. California does not have a water shortage; they have a problem with how to drink all that water that is constantly pushing itself onto their shores. Figure that crap out, and do it fast.

Edit: The article I am talking about was also comparing these things to the comparative nutritional value of those other foods.

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

A lot of it sounds like lack of foresight, in all honesty.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102562859

Santa Barbara is looking to the sea for salvation. The coastal city is prepared to spend upward of $40 million to reactivate a mothballed seawater desalination plant that opened in 1992 and shut down just three months later.

I wonder if a desal plant running for 20+ years could have kept reservoirs topped off . . . :? It requires a lot of power, but again, investments in infrastructure usually do pay off in the long run when you need them. Especially in the middle of a desert.

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Nodack
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Nodack »

I read about that plant. They were experiencing another drought and we're getting desperate and built the plant. Then they got 30 inches of rain and the drought was over. They mothballed the plant until now.

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

Ants and grasshoppers. Sheesh.

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Nodack
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Nodack »

If I only knew what that meant.

Maybe the citizens there didn't want to pay higher taxes to keep the plant open. Or maybe they didn't want a bigger inefficient government sticking their nose in where they don't belong. Let the private sector handle all those things.

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

/looks back over posts.

Hmm, nope, never made that argument in this thread. But congrats, you've apparently graduated from OE32's class on passive agressive douchebaggery.

For the record I regard water and sewer utilities as the proper domain of municipal government. And it's a reference to Aesop's fables.

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OE32
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by OE32 »

Dan H wrote: OE32's class on passive agressive douchebaggery.
Fair.

For the record, I think the country needs a massive influx of investments in water technology - desal is one, but vertical farming, water recycling and cleaning, water efficiency, others. To do it, we need the sort of federal intervention that occurred with energy starting in the late-70s. Solar energy is now cost-competitive in all 50 states, and because it's a technology, it will overwhelm fossil fuels going forward. Wouldn't have happened (at least, not this soon) without the federal government. Natural gas would never have taken off without two decades of tax credits and DOEnergy efforts. Those efforts are making the world safer because of reduced dependence on the international oil trade. Water tech would have the same effect, especially as climate change makes increases the variability of fresh water availability worldwide.
Last edited by OE32 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nodack
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Nodack »

Ants and grasshoppers. I get it now. Planning for the future. I just assumed you were making a snide remark about me that I didn't get and responded in kind. Now I feel a little bad except for you calling me a douchbag, but I guess I deserved it.
For the record I regard water and sewer utilities as the proper domain of municipal government.
I think we agree on that. Aren't most water, sewer and electric utilities municipal now? Las Vegas gets their water from Lake Mead. Without Federal assistance long ago making the Hoover Dam there would be no lake Mead and no Las Vegas. Sometimes the Federal government and state governments work together to accomplish goals that are good for everybody. Theodore Roosevelt Dam In AZ was built with a Federal loan before AZ became a state.

I think tech is the key to the worlds future. I think it is a global competition. I think that we need to invest in staying at the forefront of tech in the world or face gettng left behind. Who is leading the solar race? I don't believe it's the US. China has invested heavily into all kinds of energy tech. Germany has more solar going on than the US. I read that Solyndra was put out of business because China could make Solar panels for half the price using new technology. To some that is proof that the government investing in future tech is dumb and a waste of time. The same people that think we should only stick with oil, coal and gas energy only. I am certainly not saying stop using those energy sources, I am saying invest in the next thing now. Ants and grasshoppers. Solyndra going under proves more that we started too late along with Conservatives fighting against any form of energy that isn't coal, oil or gas having the effect of surrendering the market to China.

Some American companies like Apple have kept themselves relevant by blazing new trails in the tech world, but they are few and far between. The US used to dominate the car industry. Now we are hanging on by a thread.

The water thing is a big one. The world needs fresh drinking water. Tech is on it and they are achieving success. The Saudi are even ahead of us.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/22/wor ... under-way/
World’s Largest Solar Powered, Jellyfish-Fightin’ Desalination Plant To Be Built In Saudi Arabia
If Saudi Arabia and solar power don’t look quite right together, it’s time to shake off that 1970s oil crisis dust and take a look at the country’s recent forays into renewable energy. The latest move is a solar powered desalination plant aimed at treating 60,000 square meters of seawater daily for the northeastern city of Al Khafji. According to the developer, this will be the world’s first utility scale, solar powered desalination plant.

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Dan H
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Dan H »

I apologize, my reference was to the people mothballing the plant after 3 months, not to you personally.

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OE32
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by OE32 »

Nodack wrote: I read that Solyndra was put out of business because China could make Solar panels for half the price using new technology. To some that is proof that the government investing in future tech is dumb and a waste of time. The same people that think we should only stick with oil, coal and gas energy only. I am certainly not saying stop using those energy sources, I am saying invest in the next thing now. Ants and grasshoppers. Solyndra going under proves more that we started too late along with Conservatives fighting against any form of energy that isn't coal, oil or gas having the effect of surrendering the market to China.
The Fox News perspective on Solyndra was foolhardy. ARPA-E, the enormously successful government program that makes loans and grants to renewable energy tech companies, makes a portfolio of investments that are too risky for private investors. This may be justified on a couple grounds. One, because the benefits to society and the industry of introducing new energy tech go beyond the ability of that company to procure profits, it makes sense for the government to sponsor the activity, so as to procure such benefits. Two, while any individual investment in such tech is risky, the payoff on the large portfolio of such investments over a period of time may be significantly less risky, but it would be hard for any private fund to adequately diversify, so a government investor can do what private investors sometimes cannot. As of today, the ARPA-E investments are in the black - though this is actually not at all an indicator of their success. The government's investments in hydrofracking were sunk for about 25 years until that industry took off and helped liberate us from oil and coal (and saved lives due to cleaner air).

But the main thing to think about here is, if you're a private fund making a portfolio of investments, some of those investments will fail. That's the nature of a portfolio. And yet, I heard people harrumphing as if "big government" were proved idiotic by the failure of Solyndra, but many of these same people had never heard of ARPA-E. And how could they neglect the obvious parallel with the portfolios of private investors? Pieces of portfolios fail all the time. It's normal. No one looks at a successful fund and says, well, you're wildly successful overall, but you're a failure because one of your investments failed. You'd think people who championed the free market all day would be willing to permit government to be judged on similar terms as the private market. But no. $10 muffins!? Outrageous!!

That's not to say the government should be involved in investing as a general matter - they shouldn't be in the business of taking away opportunities from private investors (and ARPA-E is mostly involved with start-ups: Treasury doesn't get an equity stake). But moderate Republicans historically have been on board with these sorts of programs where they make sense - and they make sense in various areas. Not to say the programs can't be improved - but listening to Fox News, you'd never get a sense of the reality.

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Nodack
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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Nodack »

FOX News perspective on Solyndra was expected. Obama was for something therefore they had to be against it. No more explanation is needed.

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Re: A Tale Of 2 States: CA Faces Water Shortages But AZ ...

Post by Ghost »

Dan H wrote:I wonder if a desal plant running for 20+ years could have kept reservoirs topped off . . . :? It requires a lot of power, but again, investments in infrastructure usually do pay off in the long run when you need them. Especially in the middle of a desert.
Yeah, it's not like nobody saw this coming decades ago.

I don't know if that one plant would have made a huge difference, but I am sure that if we'd been spending the last 20 years trying to find ways to make it cheaper instead of crying "It's too expensive," then there would be a lot more plants running now.

Here's what I don't get. Desalinating water is actually very easy -- make it evaporate, collect the vapor, and you have pure water. Right there. That's about as cheap as you get. However, it's also slow. But why can't you collect a lot of water on narrow glass plates and surround the whole thing with mirrors to direct the sun at it, heating them up a lot faster? Put black sponges in between the plates to both air out the water (making it easier to evaporate) and also gather more heat. Set the whole thing up on a sort of conveyor belt that is hydropowered by the ocean itself -- this could actually be a purely mechanical setup with no electrical drain at all (and what you did need to set up electrically could be solar powered). You'd need quite a few of these setups, but you could put them on rigs out at sea, and it would be a massive investment at first...but once they run, all the water costs next to nothing.

Alternatives that would be similar -- use big black pipes filled with tiny tiny pipettes to suck sea water up through capillary action, gathering it up again in a big sponge that is soaking up the sun from 500 different directions at once. Same result, probably a simpler setup, and as long as the sun is out, it will constantly produce. Although this has the problem of quickly saturating the collector with salt, while my other plan would wash that off as the conveyor dunks the plates in the sea.

I'm sure smarter people than me could say why this wouldn't work...but regardless, the CA drought really seems like the most solvable crisis that has ever happened.

By the way, if any of you are going to steal my ideas and submit a patent, can you at least hire me as your training/documentation manager? Freelancing has been slow lately. :)

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