More as it relates to evaluating prospects, where it has a lot of statistical merit.INFORMER wrote:You always put too much emphasis on age, 'bazz, but your general point has merit.
Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
- Aztec Sunsfan
- Posts: 1880
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
“Objective NBA perspective”n4th4n wrote:No one here has been slobbering over the product on the court this year. Stop it.This board is pretty well grounded in realism. I don't think anyone here even expects Bender to become an all star. But 20-year-olds grow. That is fact. And some players develop slower than others. We just have a little more vision and patience than you, that is all. Some people can see beyond what is right in front of their face. Giving up on Bender *at this point in his career* is moronic.specialsauce wrote:Aztec Sunsfan wrote:No doubt the team is lucky to have fans like you, wishing them the best...specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.
You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
Really? Are you going to wait that long angling for some bogus bragging rights?
No doubt the team deserves fans like me, who don’t just slobber over whatever product they put out on the court and sit back and look at it from an objective NBA perspective. Not a team in this league is envious of Chriss, Bender, or anyone on this team outside of Booker, Jackson and Warren.
Tired of people being content with what we have. You should demand more of your team instead of looking at it as a complete homer.
You can argue what you want, but if the NBA followed your perspective, there would be a very different approach toward player development in the league. It’s hilarious because players like Nowitzky, Dragic and Amare wouldn’t even been drafted in the first place, neither receive second and third chances after been slaughter by the media, experts and fans with “perspective” (the first two specially, Amare shut up his critics almost out of the gate).
I have no problem being called a homer, If only because I enjoy more often than you my team and try to keep wishing them the best. I like to use the trade machine and keep hoping for that ultimate move that will make us relevant again, like Penny Hardaway or Steve Nash back in the day (you win some, and lose some). Hate it when we traded Marion for Shaq, or Steve for drafts considerations, but still remained optimistic about the outcome. I’m not delusional about my team, and therefore, as painful as it is watch them play sometimes, or get trounced by 40 points, I was aware that this year was more likely than not to be this way. I didn’t want us to walk the path of blowing it up, but here we are and I keep my fandom through great and awful.
It’s a hobby for Christ’s sake!!! No family member is in jeopardy if we fail to make the playoffs, so having an truly objective perspective, would make you to take it more lightly and enjoy more the good moments. Superbone, Bobster, Nodack, Ring Wanted among others are good examples of fans with an objective NBA perspective, always asking for more, but usually without losing grip of reality. IT’S JUST A GAME.
And I don’t need, neither want to be “right” at the expense of my team’s future. I won’t even remember or care about this argument five years from now, but feel free to hold it yourself, I’ll be busy cheering for the team.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Well said Aztec.
- virtual9mm
- Posts: 2044
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:24 pm
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I think that all the points being made on both sides are reasonable. I do think it is too early to give up on Bender, and do think his ceiling is Frye. At best, he could be Frye + Diaw in one.
He does not get an unlimited amount of time in my book, but certainly more than he has had.
He does not get an unlimited amount of time in my book, but certainly more than he has had.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I say give him one more year.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
- specialsauce
- Posts: 7692
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I don’t remember Dirk first coming into the league, but Amare was never timid and I don’t think Dragic’s issues stemmed from him being timid, he just made mistakes.Aztec Sunsfan wrote:“Objective NBA perspective”n4th4n wrote:No one here has been slobbering over the product on the court this year. Stop it.This board is pretty well grounded in realism. I don't think anyone here even expects Bender to become an all star. But 20-year-olds grow. That is fact. And some players develop slower than others. We just have a little more vision and patience than you, that is all. Some people can see beyond what is right in front of their face. Giving up on Bender *at this point in his career* is moronic.specialsauce wrote:Aztec Sunsfan wrote:No doubt the team is lucky to have fans like you, wishing them the best...specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.
You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
Really? Are you going to wait that long angling for some bogus bragging rights?
No doubt the team deserves fans like me, who don’t just slobber over whatever product they put out on the court and sit back and look at it from an objective NBA perspective. Not a team in this league is envious of Chriss, Bender, or anyone on this team outside of Booker, Jackson and Warren.
Tired of people being content with what we have. You should demand more of your team instead of looking at it as a complete homer.
You can argue what you want, but if the NBA followed your perspective, there would be a very different approach toward player development in the league. It’s hilarious because players like Nowitzky, Dragic and Amare wouldn’t even been drafted in the first place, neither receive second and third chances after been slaughter by the media, experts and fans with “perspective” (the first two specially, Amare shut up his critics almost out of the gate).
I have no problem being called a homer, If only because I enjoy more often than you my team and try to keep wishing them the best. I like to use the trade machine and keep hoping for that ultimate move that will make us relevant again, like Penny Hardaway or Steve Nash back in the day (you win some, and lose some). Hate it when we traded Marion for Shaq, or Steve for drafts considerations, but still remained optimistic about the outcome. I’m not delusional about my team, and therefore, as painful as it is watch them play sometimes, or get trounced by 40 points, I was aware that this year was more likely than not to be this way. I didn’t want us to walk the path of blowing it up, but here we are and I keep my fandom through great and awful.
It’s a hobby for Christ’s sake!!! No family member is in jeopardy if we fail to make the playoffs, so having an truly objective perspective, would make you to take it more lightly and enjoy more the good moments. Superbone, Bobster, Nodack, Ring Wanted among others are good examples of fans with an objective NBA perspective, always asking for more, but usually without losing grip of reality. IT’S JUST A GAME.
And I don’t need, neither want to be “right” at the expense of my team’s future. I won’t even remember or care about this argument five years from now, but feel free to hold it yourself, I’ll be busy cheering for the team.
You can continue to hope and pray our shit turns into gold, but after two years and no change, good luck. If he was on any other team he would be a complete afterthought as a prospect from this site. We’re stuck with the shit we’ve got.
- JustWinBaby
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:33 pm
- Location: Buckeye, Az
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
You are not allowed to change your mind.specialsauce wrote:I’m okay with trading anyone but Booker.
A couple of weeks ago you thought I was nuts for wanting to trade Josh Jackson.
I doubt it will happen but think we should grab Doncic with our first pick, if available. I would then use Jackson and other resources like draft picks to move up to get a legitimate big or Point guard I really do not care which.
The reason I would consider trading Jackson, he is quite possibly the only player that we have of any real value to any other team in the NBA and while I like him I do not love him.
Doncic, Jontay Porter (You probably do not need to trade Jackson to get him) and the best point guard available would be a nice draft IMO. For a shot to add both Doncic and Trae Young I would consider trading Josh Jackson.
I would not just dump Bender or Chriss but would be willing to trade either in the right deal.
The rest of our roster is just garbage and to think we could get anything in return for any of them is just wishful thinking.
This BUD'S for us! - Play fast Play well - Go Suns!
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I'm not trading Josh for Trae Young.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Oh god. No. Never!Split T wrote:I'm not trading Josh for Trae Young.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I see we are going to be arguing about Bender all summer.
He's still a good prospect, and he has improved a lot this season. I could understand giving up on a prospect who is stagnant, but Bender is still improving. When he stagnates, we can talk about dumping him. But as long as he is improving, keep him around.
Last year, he couldn't shoot even when he was open or at the ft line. This season he is a reliable spot-up shooter and hits most of his free throws.
Last year, he couldn't defend without fouling. This season, he has cut the fouls down drastically and is playing decent team defense.
Last year, the play ended with Bender a lot, because he either turned the ball over or missed a shot. This season, his assists are up and his turnovers are down.
He's gone from a guy who was not even an NBA player, to an NBA player with some holes in his game he needs to work on.
The only things left he is genuinely bad at are rebounding and attacking the basket.
He is already a genuinely good combination of assists and 3pt shooting.
He's still a good prospect, and he has improved a lot this season. I could understand giving up on a prospect who is stagnant, but Bender is still improving. When he stagnates, we can talk about dumping him. But as long as he is improving, keep him around.
Last year, he couldn't shoot even when he was open or at the ft line. This season he is a reliable spot-up shooter and hits most of his free throws.
Last year, he couldn't defend without fouling. This season, he has cut the fouls down drastically and is playing decent team defense.
Last year, the play ended with Bender a lot, because he either turned the ball over or missed a shot. This season, his assists are up and his turnovers are down.
He's gone from a guy who was not even an NBA player, to an NBA player with some holes in his game he needs to work on.
The only things left he is genuinely bad at are rebounding and attacking the basket.
He is already a genuinely good combination of assists and 3pt shooting.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I like Bender. The talent is there, he just needs to put all the pieces together and grow some confidence. Once he does that I think we will all see the player we envisioned. He's only 20 years old, I'd give it more time.
- specialsauce
- Posts: 7692
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Lol. I would be open to trading him but definitely not for anyone in this draft. I’ll take the sure thing over the unknown every time. I would only trade him as the center piece for a superstar. I’d trade him for Kawhi.JustWinBaby wrote:You are not allowed to change your mind.specialsauce wrote:I’m okay with trading anyone but Booker.
A couple of weeks ago you thought I was nuts for wanting to trade Josh Jackson.
I doubt it will happen but think we should grab Doncic with our first pick, if available. I would then use Jackson and other resources like draft picks to move up to get a legitimate big or Point guard I really do not care which.
The reason I would consider trading Jackson, he is quite possibly the only player that we have of any real value to any other team in the NBA and while I like him I do not love him.
Doncic, Jontay Porter (You probably do not need to trade Jackson to get him) and the best point guard available would be a nice draft IMO. For a shot to add both Doncic and Trae Young I would consider trading Josh Jackson.
I would not just dump Bender or Chriss but would be willing to trade either in the right deal.
The rest of our roster is just garbage and to think we could get anything in return for any of them is just wishful thinking.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
I would absolutely trade Josh Jackson for Trae Young. Jackson is eminently replaceable; in fact, we already have a player with many similar offensive skills at JJ's same position in TJ Warren. Hypothetically trading him for Young would likely be a huge improvement for our roster. I don't think Trae Young is the next Steph, but he has a higher ceiling than Jackson and a more valuable 2018 NBA skillset IMO.Split T wrote:I'm not trading Josh for Trae Young.
- The Bobster
- Posts: 6735
- Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:04 pm
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Every player is different.
Bender was 18, with little experience playing against top talent when he was drafted by the Suns and we were all told he was a project.
Now we need to be patient. There are obvious signs of talent, but he still needs to get stronger and assert himself a lot more offensively and on the boards. I'm fairly pleased with his progress defensively and with his passing and basketball IQ.
How high a ceiling he has depends on how much stronger he gets and how much he improves inside the 3-point arc and as a rebounder.
Bender was 18, with little experience playing against top talent when he was drafted by the Suns and we were all told he was a project.
Now we need to be patient. There are obvious signs of talent, but he still needs to get stronger and assert himself a lot more offensively and on the boards. I'm fairly pleased with his progress defensively and with his passing and basketball IQ.
How high a ceiling he has depends on how much stronger he gets and how much he improves inside the 3-point arc and as a rebounder.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
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Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
https://streamable.com/2jv7xThe Bobster wrote:Every player is different.
Bender was 18, with little experience playing against top talent when he was drafted by the Suns and we were all told he was a project.
Now we need to be patient. There are obvious signs of talent, but he still needs to get stronger and assert himself a lot more offensively and on the boards. I'm fairly pleased with his progress defensively and with his passing and basketball IQ.
How high a ceiling he has depends on how much stronger he gets and how much he improves inside the 3-point arc and as a rebounder.
[streamable][/streamable]
This is not high IQ. A smart player would have dunked it. That was either a low IQ play or the most scared player in the league. Makes Diaw look like Ron Artest.
- specialsauce
- Posts: 7692
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Watch Booker and Lens reaction on the bench. Pure disgust
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
^Very Boris Diawesque
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Young players are inconsistent. I'm sure you could find tons of clips of him making mistakes. That doesn't mean we should just dump the guy, nor that he will never get better.
- Ring_Wanted
- Posts: 5011
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
That's a bold take, Mori. If Jackson grows mentally into his own body and learns how to play under control, he is a monster. His shot is not reliable right now in spot up and catch and shoot situations, but he has displayed shotmaking ability off the bounce. This is an outstanding prospect with motor, focus and the competitive spirit to bodyguard Booker for a long time. I don't trust Young's athleticism nearly enough to invest so heavily in him.Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I would absolutely trade Josh Jackson for Trae Young. Jackson is eminently replaceable; in fact, we already have a player with many similar offensive skills at JJ's same position in TJ Warren. Hypothetically trading him for Young would likely be a huge improvement for our roster. I don't think Trae Young is the next Steph, but he has a higher ceiling than Jackson and a more valuable 2018 NBA skillset IMO.Split T wrote:I'm not trading Josh for Trae Young.
Now, if Young were to drop and you tell me you want to use say MIL and MIA picks, plus Chriss, I can see that. But to me Jackson is available only if we are trading for a young star.
Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18
Trading Jackson for Trae Young is slightly bonkers. Am I the only one that sees elite quickness in Jackson that only the rarest of NBA athletes have? Once he figures it out he will be a monster. He needs to get that outside shot going and get a little better at decision making but the tools are there. I've come around big time on his prospects.
Regarding what I said about Bender. I've not given up on him exactly. It's just I don't see him developing into an aggressive player any time soon. He'll be content to hang out at the 3 and pass up open shots for the foreseeable future.
Regarding what I said about Bender. I've not given up on him exactly. It's just I don't see him developing into an aggressive player any time soon. He'll be content to hang out at the 3 and pass up open shots for the foreseeable future.
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Og Snus!
Og Snus!