Around the League: The Off-season

[JeremyG]

During the Suns summer league game, they put up a graphic with rankings showing that Harden and Westbrook were both top 2 over the last 5 seasons in points, FGA, assists, steals, and free throws.

[djy2j]

Carsen Edwards just got 4.5 mil guaranteed money from the Celtics after tearing it up in the SL. I wish the Suns would have been smart enough to grab him and other teams will regret not drafting him in the first round. He’s too good and too smart to fail.

[Split T]

Its really a terrible problem for the league.

Teams like Utah, Toronto, Milwaukee, Denver, Detroit etc are never going to be free agent destinations. They have to draft or either trade for talent and hope their best talent doesnt leave (they always do).

Toronto just won a title, Milwaukee is the favorite in the East, Denver and Utah will probably be fighting for the 1 seed out west.

Yes those teams are never going to be in the market for the Lebron level FA, but they are all very successful franchises with really great teams right now. Hard to see how this is a “terrible” problem for the league.

Because those smaller market teams can do everything "right" and STILL lose their guy. The Raptors just won a CHAMPIONSHIP and they still couldnt keep Kawhi. This is after they lost Chris Bosh in this same decade.

Toronto lost Kawhi. Milwaukee will PROBABLY lose Giannis. Minnesota will PROBABLY lose KAT.

Will Utah be able to keep Gobert? Will Denver be able to keep Jokic? Depends on how big they get and how badly bigger market teams want them. What we know for sure is that smaller market teams have a dismal record of retaining star players.

I think a lot has to do with the era nowadays. Players just don’t spend their whole careers with 1 team anymore. Curry is the only player in the league who’s been with his team for 10 years or more.

Also, Kawhi was only in Toronto for 1 year, they acquired him knowing he was probably a rental. They took a risk and it payed off. We’ll see about Giannis and KAT, but neither have left yet.

Also, I’m not so sure small market teams have as bad a record of keeping stars as you think. And sometimes the big market teams can’t keep them either. Boston just lost Kyrie, the Lakers couldn’t keep Dwight. OKC kept Westbrook, they also resigned Paul George. Portland kept Lillard. Minny kept KG for a long time.

[da_suns_fan]

Its really a terrible problem for the league.

Teams like Utah, Toronto, Milwaukee, Denver, Detroit etc are never going to be free agent destinations. They have to draft or either trade for talent and hope their best talent doesnt leave (they always do).

Toronto just won a title, Milwaukee is the favorite in the East, Denver and Utah will probably be fighting for the 1 seed out west.

Yes those teams are never going to be in the market for the Lebron level FA, but they are all very successful franchises with really great teams right now. Hard to see how this is a “terrible” problem for the league.

Because those smaller market teams can do everything "right" and STILL lose their guy. The Raptors just won a CHAMPIONSHIP and they still couldnt keep Kawhi. This is after they lost Chris Bosh in this same decade.

Toronto lost Kawhi. Milwaukee will PROBABLY lose Giannis. Minnesota will PROBABLY lose KAT.

Will Utah be able to keep Gobert? Will Denver be able to keep Jokic? Depends on how big they get and how badly bigger market teams want them. What we know for sure is that smaller market teams have a dismal record of retaining star players.

I think a lot has to do with the era nowadays. Players just don’t spend their whole careers with 1 team anymore. Curry is the only player in the league who’s been with his team for 10 years or more.

Also, Kawhi was only in Toronto for 1 year, they acquired him knowing he was probably a rental. They took a risk and it payed off. We’ll see about Giannis and KAT, but neither have left yet.

Also, I’m not so sure small market teams have as bad a record of keeping stars as you think. And sometimes the big market teams can’t keep them either. Boston just lost Kyrie, the Lakers couldn’t keep Dwight. OKC kept Westbrook, they also resigned Paul George. Portland kept Lillard. Minny kept KG for a long time.

True. A lot of players switch teams these days. The Knicks couldnt keep Porzingis now that I think about it.

But New Orleans lost Chris Paul and now they lost Anthony Davis. As I mentioned, Toronto lost Bosh and now Kawhi. OKC lost three MVPs. Utah lost Hayward. It seems the smaller market teams are at a disadvantage.

Giannis is the litmus test. I think if he leaves Milwaukee the owners are going to revolt.

[The Bobster]

Lots of great players have left all sizes of markets as free agents or by asking for trades -

Atlanta - Danny Manning
Boston - Dave Cowens, Kyrie Irving, Jo Jo White
Charlotte - Kemba Walker
Chicago - Artis Gilmore, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen
Cleveland - Kyrie Irving, LeBron James
Dallas - Jason Kidd, Steve Nash
Denver - Carmelo Anthony, Spencer Haywood, Dikembe Mutombo
Detroit - Dave Bing, Grant Hill, Bob Lanier, Dennis Rodman
Houston - John Lucas, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon
Los Angeles - Gail Goodrich, A.C. Green, Dwight Howard, Danny Manning, Chris Paul
Memphis - Pau Gasol
Miami - LeBron James
Milwaukee - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Minneapolis - Kevin Garnett
New Orleans - Anthony Davis, Chris Paul, Truck Robinson
New York/New Jersey - Nate Archibald, Julius Erving, Jason Kidd
Oakland/San Francisco - Rick Barry, Wilt Chamberlain, Bernard King, Chris Webber, Jamaal Wilkes
Oklahoma City - Kevin Durant, Paul George, Russell Westbrook
Orlando - Penny Hadaway, Tracy McGrady, Shaquille O'Neal
Philadelphia - Charles Barkley, Wilt Chamberlain, Billy Cunningham
Phoenix - Joe Johnson, Amar'e Stoudemire, Paul Westphal
Portland - LaMarcus Aldridge, Clyde Drexler, Maurice Lucas, Bill Walton
Toronto - Chris Bosh, Vince Carter, Kawhi Leonard, Tracy McGrady

[Split T]

True. A lot of players switch teams these days. The Knicks couldnt keep Porzingis now that I think about it.

But New Orleans lost Chris Paul and now they lost Anthony Davis. As I mentioned, Toronto lost Bosh and now Kawhi. OKC lost three MVPs. Utah lost Hayward. It seems the smaller market teams are at a disadvantage.

Giannis is the litmus test. I think if he leaves Milwaukee the owners are going to revolt.

New Orleans never put a contender around Anthony Davis. Should he be forced to stay there? I have zero issue with players leaving small markets that can’t build a competitive team.

Toronto also wasn’t very good with Bosh. I’m fine with him leaving as well. Toronto also isn’t a small market. Kawhi lefts championship team, but Toronto has no case there. He was always a rental and he won them a title.

OKC lost 1 mvp. They chose to move Harden and Westbrook. Before the trade last week, Westbrook was the longest tenured player with the team that drafted him.

I do agree that Giannis will be a good test. If Milwaukee remains a contender or wins the title in the next 2 years and Giannis still leaves to join a super team, that won’t look great for small markets.

What I’ve seen is that while the bigger markets tend to get the bigger free agents, I don’t see small market teams losing big name guys because they have a small market. They lose them because they don’t build contenders around them.

If we continue to remain a lottery team over the next 3 years, I think Booker will start looking for his way out. But if we turn into a playoff team that could contend, Booker is going to stay.

[Mori Chu]

The best way to keep your stars on your team if you're a small market is to find Euros. Guys like Nowitzki and Manu are good examples. Current players like Jokic, Doncic, and Giannis will probably be more likely to stay with their current teams rather than just become mercenaries who try to team up with their pals in a major market like LA or NYC.

[Indy]

The best way to keep your stars on your team if you're a small market is to find Euros. Guys like Nowitzki and Manu are good examples. Current players like Jokic, Doncic, and Giannis will probably be more likely to stay with their current teams rather than just become mercenaries who try to team up with their pals in a major market like LA or NYC.

Dallas isn't a small market team. Manu was great, but he was almost always 2nd or 3rd banana (and almost always a bench player). He was their super sub.

The best way to keep your best player on your small market team is to pay them more than anyone else, and keep them relevant by building a winning team around them.

[Superbone]

Marcus Morris and Nerlens Noel fired Rich Paul?

[SDC]

Good for him !

[INFORMER]

I like that Jones contract a lot. I'd personally rather have Rubio for this Suns team.

Of course, because you're a Ricky Rubio superfan, Mori. But there isn't a compelling basketball argument that validates paying Rubio $16 million over paying Tyus Jones $8 million.

[ShelC]

There are a few actually. Rubio is a 10+ year vet with proven experience as a starter. Jones has averaged 17mpg mostly as a backup on bad TWolves teams and his shooting percentages aren't that far off from Rubio's.

We are a team in desperate need of a steady hand at PG who can make the game easier for our younger players. Jones would just be another young, relatively unproven player on the roster who we'd be hoping is good enough to start. In Memphis, he's perfect to take up minutes until Ja is ready or is a good backup if Ja is given the reins.

Maybe you can make the point of worth in terms of Rubio vs Jones on paper. But for us, Rubio is worth the contract at the moment.

[AmareIsGod]

It's a generational thing. My dad and many people his age (he's retired now) spent 20-30+ years with one company. Now, most younger employees, especially those in the tech sector, jump from one company to another every 2-3 years.

[In2ition]

ESPN gave out their power rankings after most of the activity of the off-season.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/271 ... -teams-now

I find it odd that the Celtics, who ended up 9th in the season ending power rankings and lost Kyrie and Horford, but added Kemba and Kanter are now ranked 7th. I feel like Utah is being slept on big time and we can all agree that until the Suns prove that they can win and Devin and Ayton are actual stars, they will get very little to no respect.

[ShelC]

It's a generational thing. My dad and many people his age (he's retired now) spent 20-30+ years with one company. Now, most younger employees, especially those in the tech sector, jump from one company to another ever 2-3 years.

Pretty common all around I think, especially in corporate. 3-4 years max before people move on. If you're there longer, it's almost seen as a negative and if you're there too long it's only a matter of time before they're looking to replace you with someone younger and cheaper. And if you want to move up the ladder, you usually have to jump for a new title every 2-3 years.

[ShelC]

ESPN gave out their power rankings after most of the activity of the off-season.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/271 ... -teams-now

I find it odd that the Celtics, who ended up 9th in the season ending power rankings and lost Kyrie and Horford, but added Kemba and Kanter are now ranked 7th. I feel like Utah is being slept on big time and we can all agree that until the Suns prove that they can win and Devin and Ayton are actual stars, they will get very little to no respect.

The way I see it now is Kemba > Kyrie but Horford > Kanter. I think Horford was the key guy there defensively and in the lockerroom. Kemba can add to the lockerroom (Kyrie is addition by subtraction) but you need a defensive bigman and Kanter sure ain't it. His negative on defense could outweigh Kemba's positive on offense.

[In2ition]

ESPN gave out their power rankings after most of the activity of the off-season.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/271 ... -teams-now

I find it odd that the Celtics, who ended up 9th in the season ending power rankings and lost Kyrie and Horford, but added Kemba and Kanter are now ranked 7th. I feel like Utah is being slept on big time and we can all agree that until the Suns prove that they can win and Devin and Ayton are actual stars, they will get very little to no respect.

The way I see it now is Kemba > Kyrie but Horford > Kanter. I think Horford was the key guy there defensively and in the lockerroom. Kemba can add to the lockerroom (Kyrie is addition by subtraction) but you need a defensive bigman and Kanter sure ain't it. His negative on defense could outweigh Kemba's positive on offense.

I think I agree with this, but it still was perplexing that they moved up in the rankings when so many West teams improved and imo are much better than the Celtics.

[ShelC]

Yea the only thing I can think of is that they're getting a big boost from Kyrie not being there and Tatum, Hayward, and Brown maybe having bounce back years? But I wouldn't put them ahead of the Trailblazers or Jazz. Questionable whether they're better than BK or Toronto.

[Split T]

Pelicans released Christian Wood. I’d definitely look at him to take our last roster spot.

[INFORMER]

There are a few actually. Rubio is a 10+ year vet with proven experience as a starter. Jones has averaged 17mpg mostly as a backup on bad TWolves teams and his shooting percentages aren't that far off from Rubio's.

We are a team in desperate need of a steady hand at PG who can make the game easier for our younger players. Jones would just be another young, relatively unproven player on the roster who we'd be hoping is good enough to start. In Memphis, he's perfect to take up minutes until Ja is ready or is a good backup if Ja is given the reins.

Maybe you can make the point of worth in terms of Rubio vs Jones on paper. But for us, Rubio is worth the contract at the moment.

Rubio really hasn't accomplished anything. So the value of his "vet experience" is negligible. He isn't the guy that leads a team or commands a lockeroom. He is a skilled passer that can't struggles to shoot. Utah has been solid, but he wasn't driving that team, and in the playoffs, Jazz fans wanted him off the court and Rockets fans were loving every second he was on the court.

The quality of the Wolves has nothing to do with assessing Jones. That is a misleading comment. Rubio played on Wolves teams that were just as bad. Rubio didn't get better when he went to Utah, he just went to a better team.