NBA Playoffs 2020

[Indy]

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, DPOY, didn't lose in the finals (LeBron in 2011 vs Mavs is huge stain on these discussions) and elevated the NBA globally like no other athlete ever, LeBron included. At this moment, I don't see a real case. If LeBron wins 6 when all is said and done, it could be a technical tie. Don't see him over Jordan in any case.

To me the top tiers are:

Jordan-LeBron-Wilt
Kareem-Bird-Magic
Duncan-Russell-Shaq

Kobe-Dr J-Hakeem-Dirk-West-Robertson
Barkley-Malone-Stockton-Nash

Will have to wait on Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, although Curry could go as high as Kareem-Bird-Maig tier. KD prbably ends up on Kobe's tier and Harden-Westbrook go with Barkley and co.

I grew up in the Jordan era, but if I had to pick a top 3, in order, I put MJ 3rd. Kareem, LeBron, MJ--then Wilt--Bird--Magic.

I don't get why so many people leave Kareem out of the GOAT discussions.

[Furlanfufi]

Because he was not flashy. I think Kareem should be in the top 3 discussion everytime.
But MJ is 1st in my rankings.

[In2ition]

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, DPOY, didn't lose in the finals (LeBron in 2011 vs Mavs is huge stain on these discussions) and elevated the NBA globally like no other athlete ever, LeBron included. At this moment, I don't see a real case. If LeBron wins 6 when all is said and done, it could be a technical tie. Don't see him over Jordan in any case.

To me the top tiers are:

Jordan-LeBron-Wilt
Kareem-Bird-Magic
Duncan-Russell-Shaq

Kobe-Dr J-Hakeem-Dirk-West-Robertson
Barkley-Malone-Stockton-Nash

Will have to wait on Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, although Curry could go as high as Kareem-Bird-Maig tier. KD prbably ends up on Kobe's tier and Harden-Westbrook go with Barkley and co.

LeBron is going to have every total playoff record in the book. He will also be on top of most other total records. He's gone to 10 Finals with essentially 4 teams and 2 conferences.
Every team he went to was significantly worse before he went and after he left. He makes everyone better.
The Bulls were a 55 win team that took the Eastern Conference rep to the Finals to 7 games in the 2nd round when Jordan left. It wasn't like they fell off the cliff, but when LeBron leaves a team, they completely fall off a cliff.
The guy is also probably the most physically gifted player that's ever played, and he hardly ever gets hurt.
Part of the problem with him going to Cleveland was that he elevated them so quickly(even though they didn't make the playoffs in his first yr out of high school) that they had a hard time building a dominate team around him with good draft picks.
Like Nash, he is getting better as he ages, but his body isn't breaking down yet and he's still one of the best athletes in the NBA after 17 yrs in.

I was the first person I ever knew to wear a jersey to school when I was growing up, and it was a Jordan jersey when I was in the 6th grade. I remember watching the playoff game he had against the Celtics when he scored 63 while it was live on TV. I'm not a Jordan hater, so I'm not coming from it from that angle. I was a big Jordan fan.

[Superbone]

Me either. And Jordan's the GOAT.

[Shabazz]

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, DPOY, didn't lose in the finals (LeBron in 2011 vs Mavs is huge stain on these discussions) and elevated the NBA globally like no other athlete ever, LeBron included. At this moment, I don't see a real case. If LeBron wins 6 when all is said and done, it could be a technical tie. Don't see him over Jordan in any case.

Never got this argument. It's OK to compare total rings, but isn't a finals appearance better than losing in the second round or conference finals?

Ultimately, "best player ever" may not be an argument that you can settle. I think when LeBron retires he will have had the greatest career ever and it won't be close.

[Superbone]

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, DPOY, didn't lose in the finals (LeBron in 2011 vs Mavs is huge stain on these discussions) and elevated the NBA globally like no other athlete ever, LeBron included. At this moment, I don't see a real case. If LeBron wins 6 when all is said and done, it could be a technical tie. Don't see him over Jordan in any case.

Never got this argument. It's OK to compare total rings, but isn't a finals appearance better than losing in the second round or conference finals?

Ultimately, "best player ever" may not be an argument that you can settle. I think when LeBron retires he will have had the greatest career ever and it won't be close.

That I can agree with.

[Ring_Wanted]

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, DPOY, didn't lose in the finals (LeBron in 2011 vs Mavs is huge stain on these discussions) and elevated the NBA globally like no other athlete ever, LeBron included. At this moment, I don't see a real case. If LeBron wins 6 when all is said and done, it could be a technical tie. Don't see him over Jordan in any case.

Never got this argument. It's OK to compare total rings, but isn't a finals appearance better than losing in the second round or conference finals?

Ultimately, "best player ever" may not be an argument that you can settle. I think when LeBron retires he will have had the greatest career ever and it won't be close.

It is, but then you have to take into acocunt how hard was your conference and Jordan faced tougher teams. At the same time, there is a lot of value in the fact that once you get to the big stage, nobody can defeat you.

LeBron made more finals. Jordan never was defeated in the finals. Jordan never played bad unlike LeBron in 2011. LeBron led all players in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals. Jordan made the final shot. LeBron made the final block. Jordan defeated many all time greats at their peak. LeBron defeated GSW 73 wins team.

If Lebron ends up with 6 or more rings, I can see a real fight. Othewise, we are talking about a monster that got this close to MJ.

[Split T]

I was pretty young for the Jordan era, so my opinion probably doesn’t amount to much, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone other than Lebron could be considered to have the greatest career. I think Kareem and Russell could conceivably have an argument, but Lebron will pass Kareem someday in total points. Also, while it’s not Kareem’s fault, he had his best statistical seasons pre-merger. I just don’t think the league was as good back then. Of course I wasn’t alive, so my opinion again may not mean much. I just think Lebron could have done whatever he wanted back in the 60’s/70’s. Like if he wanted to drop 50/15/15, he could have.

To me, Lebron does more on a basketball court than anyone who has ever played. As a pure basketball player, he’s the best we’ve ever seen. I don’t think anyone could single handedly take a team and make them a contender like he did. Jordan has had more championship success, but it’s hard to compare their situations. Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

Ultimately, I don’t think you can go wrong with either. If I’m starting from scratch or starting with a mediocre or poor team, give me Lebron. I think he fills more holes in a roster than anyone ever has. If my team is already very good and needs a ceiling raiser to push us over the top, give me Jordan.

[Superbone]

Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

I was with you every step until you said that. I heard an audible record scratch. Uh, yeah. You weren't around at that time and it shows.

[Split T]

Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

I was with you every step until you said that. I heard an audible record scratch. Uh, yeah. You weren't around at that time and it shows.

Please tell me what team Jordan played that was as good as the Warriors?

I had this discussion with a friend not too long ago. Take the top teams Jordan and Lebron faced in the playoffs as ranked by SRS:

1. ‘17 Warriors
2. ‘16 Warriors
3. ‘15 Warriors
4. ‘08 Celtics
5. ‘86 Celtics
6. ‘07 Spurs
7. ‘14 Spurs
8. ‘97 Jazz
9. ‘96 Sonics
10. ‘18 Raptors

Lebron played the 4 toughest, 6 of the 7 toughest and 7 of 10.

[Drewsprocket]

Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

I was with you every step until you said that. I heard an audible record scratch. Uh, yeah. You weren't around at that time and it shows.

Please tell me what team Jordan played that was as good as the Warriors?

I had this discussion with a friend not too long ago. Take the top teams Jordan and Lebron faced in the playoffs as ranked by SRS:

1. ‘17 Warriors
2. ‘16 Warriors
3. ‘15 Warriors
4. ‘08 Celtics
5. ‘86 Celtics
6. ‘07 Spurs
7. ‘14 Spurs
8. ‘97 Jazz
9. ‘96 Sonics
10. ‘18 Raptors

Lebron played the 4 toughest, 6 of the 7 toughest and 7 of 10.

Nice take. But these 90s teams were tough as nails and playing under different rules that would never enable Steph to hang 30 let alone 40 in a playoff game every night. Jazz, Sonics, Lakers would be rough on Warriors. The Lakers were hit by injury btw in 91. Anyhoo, the biggest stat here is that Jordan’s team occupies 4/10 on your SRS list top 10 wise. Jordan was never part of any big 3. It was him and Pippen with a veterans, and a starting PF (Grant/Rodman).
There’s Jordan and then there’s Kobe and Lebron.
Ask yourself who had a better career, Kobe or Lebron.

[Wally_West]

These videos always make me laugh.

[Wally_West]

[Mori Chu]

The argument is as simple as this: Michael Jordan absolutely never choked in his career. Once he got to the point where he'd been in the league enough years, and had a decent team around him, he started winning titles, and then he never stopped. 6 in a row. Every time he went into the playoffs with a good team, he won the title. He never ever got close but then choked under pressure or had a crappy game to lose his shot at the Finals. Lebron is a more impressive physical specimen and has had a better longevity to his career, but he's been to 9 Finals and choked in 6 of them. That's absolutely disqualifying if you're talking about who is the GOAT. MJ, undefeated, an absolute assassin. You simply were not going to beat him. Lebron, very good, repeatedly blew it in the Finals and playoffs. In any given series you absolutely could beat him. Not the greatest ever.

[Split T]

Lebron did not choke 6 times. He had one bad series against Dallas. Every other time he lost he was playing a better team. Jordan never lost in the finals because he never played a team better than him in the finals. Of course Jordan is the main reason his team was always better, but you can’t just take out all variables and look strictly at finals records. By that measure Bill Russell is the GOAT by a long shot.

[Split T]

Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

I was with you every step until you said that. I heard an audible record scratch. Uh, yeah. You weren't around at that time and it shows.

Please tell me what team Jordan played that was as good as the Warriors?

I had this discussion with a friend not too long ago. Take the top teams Jordan and Lebron faced in the playoffs as ranked by SRS:

1. ‘17 Warriors
2. ‘16 Warriors
3. ‘15 Warriors
4. ‘08 Celtics
5. ‘86 Celtics
6. ‘07 Spurs
7. ‘14 Spurs
8. ‘97 Jazz
9. ‘96 Sonics
10. ‘18 Raptors

Lebron played the 4 toughest, 6 of the 7 toughest and 7 of 10.

Nice take. But these 90s teams were tough as nails and playing under different rules that would never enable Steph to hang 30 let alone 40 in a playoff game every night. Jazz, Sonics, Lakers would be rough on Warriors. The Lakers were hit by injury btw in 91. Anyhoo, the biggest stat here is that Jordan’s team occupies 4/10 on your SRS list top 10 wise. Jordan was never part of any big 3. It was him and Pippen with a veterans, and a starting PF (Grant/Rodman).
There’s Jordan and then there’s Kobe and Lebron.
Ask yourself who had a better career, Kobe or Lebron.

I don’t want to get into a debate about who could do what in other eras, that’s not really my point. Simply speaking, the teams Lebron faced in the playoffs fared better against the opponents of their day than the teams Jordan faced in the playoffs fared against the opponents of their day.

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question. I don’t have a problem with someone who thinks Jordan is the GOAT, by some interpretations I’d agree that he is.

And Lebron vs Kobe isn’t even a question. It’s Lebron by a mile.

[iLLmatic]

Let's also not forget that Jordan stayed on one team to get his 6 rings. Lebron has hopped from team to team forming super teams to make it work for him. Lebron's a great player but he's not in the same stratosphere when it comes to competitiveness as Jordan.

[Split T]

I think there are a few reasons for that, first and foremost the culture was different in Jordan’s day, players didn’t move around as much. Secondly, Jordan didn’t need to move around, his team was championship caliber. That Cavs team Lebron was on sucked outside of Lebron. To me that’s rewarding Jordan for his teams front office ability.

[BookTheGoat]

Choked 6 times?! Losing and Choking are not synonymous. 2011 is the only blemish.

[Charlie Smithy!]

I'll go to my grave believing that the 1993 Suns were better than the Bulls - at least in overall talent in the aggregate as far as the rosters.

...that 1-2 punch of Jordan and Pippen, however...