Deserved criticism.Nodack wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:48 pmI don’t think he has earned a max contract yet. Can we even afford three max contracts? Best case scenario seems to be him not being a max player and we get him for a reasonable amount. My main point is that we talk about him as if he was a total crappy player that we need to dump as soon as possible because he sucks so bad. We should dump him like the 400 centers that came before him that never measured up to our high standards. Is there even a center in Suns history that did measure up to our high standards? I don’t think so. I don’t know if Ayton is going to ever be a max player or not. I just don’t think he has earned the amount of disrespect he gets around here.Indy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pmSo do you give him a max (or near max) contract? Because if you don't, someone else will. And then he will be gone and the Suns will get nothing for him.Nodack wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:17 pmI don’t see it that way. He has his weaknesses. He has his nights where he isn’t so great. He seems to be kind of a slow learner and has questionable hands. He keeps the ball low instead of high where no guards can steal it. He seems to avoid dunking the ball. It can be frustrating to watch this perfect human specimen of a center’s not perform as we expect. Kanter had his way with Ayton on the boards. Ayton is #8 in boards. Kanter is #3. Perhaps a teaching moment for Ayton.
He has his nights where he kind of kicks ass and kind of dominates too. I can see where they have worked on and gotten better at the pick and roll with him this year. He overall stats are pretty impressive. Ayton was picked #1 over Doncic. Unless he’s the most dominant big man to ever put on a uniform he will be always be a disappointment to lot of Suns fans. Trade him now because he sucks? I don’t see it that way. Monty has been rewarding the best players that night with minutes in crunch time and Ayton doesn’t always get to play those minutes. Watching Dario dominate the paint in the fourth quarter is another teaching moment for Ayton. I am pulling for the guy even though he frustrates me. I am not for pushing a trade. I don’t think he is broken. He may never be the greatest center the NBA has ever seen but, so what? You guys would really take Kaminsky over Ayton as your center?
Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
Paying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.Indy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 amI think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.
Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
Last edited by specialsauce on Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ring_Wanted
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
That's a surprisingly superficial analysis. None of those big men are capable of switching on defense the way Ayton can (and most can't even defend at all). That's what make most of them a liability for long stretches of the game, unlike Ayton.INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pmAnd I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.
Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
Do you think he is in the top 75 players or so in the NBA?specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pmPaying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.Indy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 amI think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.
Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
And likewise the Suns are better with Saric at the 5 for stretches of the game. So again, it is about net result.Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:21 pmThat's a surprisingly superficial analysis. None of those big men are capable of switching on defense the way Ayton can (and most can't even defend at all). That's what make most of them a liability for long stretches of the game, unlike Ayton.INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 pmAnd I'm not worried about a team offering Ayton a max contract. There is just too much talent in the league at the 5. It is very easy to find a productive, reliable big; just about every team has one. It's one of the reasons why Andre Drummond has zero trade value and why a double-double monster like Hassan Whiteside is attainable for the minimum.
Ayton isn't significantly better than Enes Kanter, Thomas Bryant, or Ivica Zubac, and none of those guys' salaries exceed Ayton's rookie salary. That's why Ayton at even $20 mil/yr is not an asset. He would moveable, but there won't be a line of suitors with substantial offers to acquire him.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
I would have to count that out but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I don’t think his value at $20M above a replacement at $12M is significant enough to warrant that contract.Indy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:36 pmDo you think he is in the top 75 players or so in the NBA?specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pmPaying role players $20M/year is what eats your cap space without moving the needle and hamstrings you from making actual moves to contend. Horrible roster construction- leaves you with rather little to no room to round out the roster OR bring in a max level player.Indy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:49 amI think 20M/year for what he brings in the current CBA is about right. There are 68 guys in the NBA making 20M/year or more this season. You can say many of those are "bad contracts" but they are what they are. An above average starting defensive center that can also get you 15ppg is in that range.
Maybe this is all moot and DA wants to stay with the suns and knows he won't get more than that. But he has an agent, and his agent's job is to get him the most he can on that 2nd contract. Someone will throw max money at the guy.
DA I would argue is our 4th most important player this year and maybe 5th if Saric stayed healthy. You cannot afford to pay that player $20M/ year.
I’d be much happier rolling with Dario + another big at $10-12M annually, and spending that money elsewhere than giving it to a player whose team is better with him off the court.
For example, I would HAPPILY take Jayson Tatum at the max to pair with Booker, and take a value player at the 5 who is slightly less talented than DA at half the contract.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
I could see Jones making a play for Jerami Grant.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
How did I get in the wrong game day thread
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
I see you made your way out of this one and into the right one so that’s good.
"Be Legendary."
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
He is getting much more consistent.INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 pm$40 million a year committed to Ayton and Bridges is a lot of money for little production. OG Anunoby's extension screwed the market up, so yeah, you'll probably have to commit $20 mil per year on Bridges. But he is a guy that is just as likely to give you 8 points in a given night as he is 16 points.
He has nine games <=8 points. He has thirteen games >=16.
Still not where he needs to be to justify two first round picks, but he is getting closer.
Breakdown
Code: Select all
16% Points>=20: 6 (w/one 34 point game)
22% 15<=Points<20: 8
32% 10<=Points<15: 12
30%. Points<10: 11
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
If you can lock up the Bridges/Ayton combo for $40m/year combined, I think that's a good deal. I'd do it. I realize that's not how NBA contracts work, but still.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
If you do, that probably has to be done this summer. If you wait until they are both RFAs the year after, and basically tell them they are not worth a 2nd contract before that, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
And if you do it this summer, that means you are walking into next year with only 9 guys under contract, and a payroll of nearly 140M.
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
I’m totally fine not giving Ayton any extension this summer. We’re under no obligation to do that and it’ll hopefully light a fire under him.
- Charlie Smithy!
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Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
OK, so let's say it does light a fire under him and he plays like we all know he can. And he gets a contract offer you don't want to match. Then what?
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
I love Saric as much as the next guy, but do we really think he's a +23 net rating against starting lineups? Would he be able to show Ayton how it's done in the post against even Kanter?
Re: Game Day: Suns (24-11) @ Blazers (21-14), Thurs 3/11/21
He is a very good back up. He is a below average starter. I like how we are using him.