Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

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Split T
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:09 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:44 am
I mean depth is good, but 6 bigs? We were down to 1 last year in the finals, but that doesn’t mean we need 6…sure, injuries happen, but what if we lose one of our guards or one of our wings? Are you guys prepared to play Nader and Payton in the playoffs?

I think a big depth chart of Ayton/McGee/Biyombo is plenty. One of those guys won’t even play in the postseason if we’re healthy. And it certain matchups we may not see 2 of them.

If Frank comes back, then you’ve got 2 injury insurance bigs. I think we can afford to move our 3rd and 4th injury insurance bigs for something a little more useful.
So last year you count Frank, Dario, Smith, and Ayton as 1 big in the playoffs, but now you want to count them as 4? It is the beginning of January.
  • We have seen 3 games from Smith that says he could help, and 75 that says he can't.
  • And Biyombo has played 2 games for us.
  • We don't know if Saric will recover this year.
  • Frank is out with a "who knows if and when he can play again" injury.
  • The last time Biyombo saw playoff minutes was 6 years ago.
By my count we have 2 bigs that we know can play meaningful minutes in a playoff series, another that could if healthy, and a couple more we hope could help. That is a lot of hope...
We didn’t have Saric in the finals. So no I don’t count him. Jalen didn’t play and yes he only has 5 good games so far, but that’s 5 more than he had shown before two weeks ago. So no I don’t count him last year. And honestly maybe we shouldn’t count him this year. Or count him as half a big. Maybe I should have counted Frank last year. He played in 2 games I think? He was awful in 1 and decent in the other.

So I’ll amend my statement to we had 1.5 bigs last year in the finals, but that doesn’t mean we need 5.5 bigs this year.

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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:46 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:09 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:44 am
I mean depth is good, but 6 bigs? We were down to 1 last year in the finals, but that doesn’t mean we need 6…sure, injuries happen, but what if we lose one of our guards or one of our wings? Are you guys prepared to play Nader and Payton in the playoffs?

I think a big depth chart of Ayton/McGee/Biyombo is plenty. One of those guys won’t even play in the postseason if we’re healthy. And it certain matchups we may not see 2 of them.

If Frank comes back, then you’ve got 2 injury insurance bigs. I think we can afford to move our 3rd and 4th injury insurance bigs for something a little more useful.
So last year you count Frank, Dario, Smith, and Ayton as 1 big in the playoffs, but now you want to count them as 4? It is the beginning of January.
  • We have seen 3 games from Smith that says he could help, and 75 that says he can't.
  • And Biyombo has played 2 games for us.
  • We don't know if Saric will recover this year.
  • Frank is out with a "who knows if and when he can play again" injury.
  • The last time Biyombo saw playoff minutes was 6 years ago.
By my count we have 2 bigs that we know can play meaningful minutes in a playoff series, another that could if healthy, and a couple more we hope could help. That is a lot of hope...
We didn’t have Saric in the finals. So no I don’t count him. Jalen didn’t play and yes he only has 5 good games so far, but that’s 5 more than he had shown before two weeks ago. So no I don’t count him last year. And honestly maybe we shouldn’t count him this year. Or count him as half a big. Maybe I should have counted Frank last year. He played in 2 games I think? He was awful in 1 and decent in the other.

So I’ll amend my statement to we had 1.5 bigs last year in the finals, but that doesn’t mean we need 5.5 bigs this year.
I guess I am saying we don't have 5.5 bigs now unless you say we had 4 last year. You are using what ended up happening for the full season + playoffs last year but only using the first 2 months of the season this year. Knock on wood, but do you really think we would make it through the playoffs with 6 capable, healthy centers? We know for sure 1 of them won't be healthy (or at least in game shape) in Dario, and like you said Frank had a really awful game and one good game. Just with those 2 out of the equation we are down to 4. And again, a week's worth of decent play against bad teams doesn't a playoff center make.

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Split T
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Fair enough, I guess what I’m saying then is I’d rather have another wing/guard ahead of Payton/Nader in the rotation than keeping all 6 centers. Ayton/McGee/Biyombo/Frank is enough for me.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by LazarusLong »

My guess is Nader, if/when he is somewhat healthy, won't see much time on the court.
At best, he's a trade throw-in/afterthought.
Window is open again ... blue skies ahead?

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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:05 pm
Fair enough, I guess what I’m saying then is I’d rather have another wing/guard ahead of Payton/Nader in the rotation than keeping all 6 centers. Ayton/McGee/Biyombo/Frank is enough for me.
I agree that if we can trade our screwed up #10 pick and our ACL-blown center for a good guard that can play in the playoffs, absolutely. I just don't think it is likely.

What we need more than anything, is contract-year Cam Payne.

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Split T
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

He won’t if we’re healthy, but he will if one wing gets hurt.

Basically our current depth chart looks like this:

PG - CP3, Payne, Payton
SG - Booker, Shamet, Payton
SF - Bridges, Johnson, Nader
PF - Crowder, Johnson, Nader
C - Ayton, McGee, Biyombo, Smith, Kaminsky, Saric

It’s just imbalanced. Even if you assume Kaminsky and Saric don’t play at all this season, we still have 4 guys for 1 position.

I understand wanting depth, but as we sit, there’s 4 centers that won’t get minutes in the playoffs. We can currently survive 4 injuries and still have 2 playable centers.

Basically 6 playable centers to cover 1 position
3 playable wings that have to cover 2 positions
4 playable guards to cover 2 positions.

We’re 1 injury away from an unplayable wing or guard and 5 injuries away from an unplayable big.

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Split T
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:15 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:05 pm
Fair enough, I guess what I’m saying then is I’d rather have another wing/guard ahead of Payton/Nader in the rotation than keeping all 6 centers. Ayton/McGee/Biyombo/Frank is enough for me.
I agree that if we can trade our screwed up #10 pick and our ACL-blown center for a good guard that can play in the playoffs, absolutely. I just don't think it is likely.

What we need more than anything, is contract-year Cam Payne.
Well I think we’re on the same page then. That’s exactly the guys I’m suggesting trading. I do think we can get someone useful for them.

I know I made a trade Ayton post in the other thread, but I’m not actually suggesting that. Just trade the 5th and 6th centers for a better 4th wing/guard.

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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:29 pm
He won’t if we’re healthy, but he will if one wing gets hurt.

Basically our current depth chart looks like this:

PG - CP3, Payne, Payton
SG - Booker, Shamet, Payton
SF - Bridges, Johnson, Nader
PF - Crowder, Johnson, Nader
C - Ayton, McGee, Biyombo, Smith, Kaminsky, Saric

It’s just imbalanced. Even if you assume Kaminsky and Saric don’t play at all this season, we still have 4 guys for 1 position.

I understand wanting depth, but as we sit, there’s 4 centers that won’t get minutes in the playoffs. We can currently survive 4 injuries and still have 2 playable centers.

Basically 6 playable centers to cover 1 position
3 playable wings that have to cover 2 positions
4 playable guards to cover 2 positions.

We’re 1 injury away from an unplayable wing or guard and 5 injuries away from an unplayable big.
We had 4 guys for 1 position to start the finals last year and it wasn't enough.

It also isn't fair to say we are 1 injury way from playing Payton a lot but 5 injuries way from an unplayable big. We literally have 4 of our bigs out with injuries right now. Hopefully 2 will be back soon.

Think of it this way, we have 4 good players in the back court (2 positions) and 6 good players for the front court (3 positions). Then we have 2 injured bigs that play 4/5 and 1 guard that sucks, a front court player that isn't good, and 2 more front court players that are unproven.

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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:32 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:15 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:05 pm
Fair enough, I guess what I’m saying then is I’d rather have another wing/guard ahead of Payton/Nader in the rotation than keeping all 6 centers. Ayton/McGee/Biyombo/Frank is enough for me.
I agree that if we can trade our screwed up #10 pick and our ACL-blown center for a good guard that can play in the playoffs, absolutely. I just don't think it is likely.

What we need more than anything, is contract-year Cam Payne.
Well I think we’re on the same page then. That’s exactly the guys I’m suggesting trading. I do think we can get someone useful for them.

I know I made a trade Ayton post in the other thread, but I’m not actually suggesting that. Just trade the 5th and 6th centers for a better 4th wing/guard.
I don't think anyone is going to trade for Jalen unless we are giving away 1st round picks. If they trade for him and spend the time to develop him and play him a lot at center, that team can only offer him 4.67M next year (because we declined his 3rd year option). But another team can offer him the room MLE which is half a million more per year. I am not saying he will get that kind of offer, but you don't trade for a guy if you expect him to suck.
Last edited by Indy on Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:39 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
But he has 40 pounds over Jalen. He needs to spend a lot of time in the weight room if he is going to be a successful stretch big. Because he doesn't have the play making chops to stand at the top of the key and facilitate. Even if his shot improves a ton, he will need to spend a lot of time boxing out and defending much larger guys.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Superbone »

djy2j wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:01 pm
Also, Wainright has equaled what Nader has given us.
No he hasn't.
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Superbone wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:45 pm
djy2j wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:01 pm
Also, Wainright has equaled what Nader has given us.
No he hasn't.
Yeah, this is way off. Nader is a fringe rotation player. Wainright is lucky to be on a roster.
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Mori Chu »

I don't think we have too many bigs. I like having Biyombo so we don't depend on Stix if he regresses. I am not really considering Saric or Kaminsky right now because they both have serious injuries and may not play again this season. Having more good bigs gives us more flexibility to make a trade if needed, and it doesn't stop us from finding another guard if one becomes available.

My guess is that we do trade at least one big man (Stix?) before the deadline. I would also not be surprised if we sign a buy-out guard late in the season to help us on the playoff stretch.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Superbone »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:15 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:05 pm
Fair enough, I guess what I’m saying then is I’d rather have another wing/guard ahead of Payton/Nader in the rotation than keeping all 6 centers. Ayton/McGee/Biyombo/Frank is enough for me.
I agree that if we can trade our screwed up #10 pick and our ACL-blown center for a good guard that can play in the playoffs, absolutely. I just don't think it is likely.

What we need more than anything, is contract-year Cam Payne.
A lot of peeps said we underpaid Payne. I think we paid him about exactly right.
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:43 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:39 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
But he has 40 pounds over Jalen. He needs to spend a lot of time in the weight room if he is going to be a successful stretch big. Because he doesn't have the play making chops to stand at the top of the key and facilitate. Even if his shot improves a ton, he will need to spend a lot of time boxing out and defending much larger guys.
I'm 100% sure this will happen. We've just seen 5 games of him looking like a legitimate NBA player, so he's not going to be out of the league any time soon. So what else is he going to do with his time besides work out?
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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:47 pm
Superbone wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:45 pm
djy2j wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:01 pm
Also, Wainright has equaled what Nader has given us.
No he hasn't.
Yeah, this is way off. Nader is a fringe rotation player. Wainright is lucky to be on a roster.
There isn't a better way to say it. Despite all of the hate Nader gets, he is a service able wing that plays hard and is decent on defense, and gets to the rim (but has trouble finishing). That gets you a job on an NBA roster. For good teams, you are end of the bench. For mediocre/bad teams, you get 20 mpg.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Superbone »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:39 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
He doesn't believe it himself. Look at his eyes.
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Indy
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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:49 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:43 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:39 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
But he has 40 pounds over Jalen. He needs to spend a lot of time in the weight room if he is going to be a successful stretch big. Because he doesn't have the play making chops to stand at the top of the key and facilitate. Even if his shot improves a ton, he will need to spend a lot of time boxing out and defending much larger guys.
I'm 100% sure this will happen. We've just seen 5 games of him looking like a legitimate NBA player, so he's not going to be out of the league any time soon. So what else is he going to do with his time besides work out?
Yeah I am not doubting he will put in the work. But he might lose a lot at 250 (instead of 215). We just don't know, and doesn't look like we bothered to get him there the last 2.5 years.

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Re: Suns News: Week 12 (1/3-1/9)

Post by Superbone »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:49 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:43 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:39 pm
LazarusLong wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Methinks there are some in the Suns organization who hope Smith could develop into a Bobby-Portis type 4.
Stix would have to develop more confidence in his three.
The form is there, he just needs to figure out when and where to shoot.
Funny, I was watching the Bucks/Raptors game last night and thought of the same comparison, but more of a small-ball bench 5 which is how Portis is mostly used in Milwaukee.

I was really down on Portis a year ago. I thought he was a knucklehead who'd never contribute to winning (RE: Christian Wood), but he really found a spot in Milwaukee and everyone sees the value in a guy with his combination of size and skill set.
But he has 40 pounds over Jalen. He needs to spend a lot of time in the weight room if he is going to be a successful stretch big. Because he doesn't have the play making chops to stand at the top of the key and facilitate. Even if his shot improves a ton, he will need to spend a lot of time boxing out and defending much larger guys.
I'm 100% sure this will happen. We've just seen 5 games of him looking like a legitimate NBA player, so he's not going to be out of the league any time soon. So what else is he going to do with his time besides work out?
I've already seen him get more muscular since we first drafted him.
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