Phx-Suns.Net

INFORMER wrote:I just got whiplash from all that spin.

No kidding.

OE32 wrote:Who would have thunk, watching that AWFUL 2011-2012 team, that we would have been able to get 4 first round draft picks trading that roster (not to mention Eric Bledsoe)? We also added a first-rounder for nothing by signing and later trading IT. We gave one of those draft picks (Ennis) away, and we sunk the Lakers pick into Knight. But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move. As I mentioned, with this trade, if we don't win the lottery, we'll essentially be in the same position as if we had finished #12-#16 this season and the Lakers lost the lotto, falling to 4 or 5.

This terrible drama has cost us a season, but you've got to be impressed with how well we're positioned going forward. I'm excited to watch the young guys develop. There aren't many teams with which I'd switch places - GSW, MIN... BOS? PHI? Frankly, I like our young guys better than Boston's and Philly's.

GOOOOOO SUNS!!!

OE, are you smoking something?

Indy wrote:

OE32 wrote:Who would have thunk, watching that AWFUL 2011-2012 team, that we would have been able to get 4 first round draft picks trading that roster (not to mention Eric Bledsoe)? We also added a first-rounder for nothing by signing and later trading IT. We gave one of those draft picks (Ennis) away, and we sunk the Lakers pick into Knight. But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move. As I mentioned, with this trade, if we don't win the lottery, we'll essentially be in the same position as if we had finished #12-#16 this season and the Lakers lost the lotto, falling to 4 or 5.

This terrible drama has cost us a season, but you've got to be impressed with how well we're positioned going forward. I'm excited to watch the young guys develop. There aren't many teams with which I'd switch places - GSW, MIN... BOS? PHI? Frankly, I like our young guys better than Boston's and Philly's.

GOOOOOO SUNS!!!

OE, are you smoking something?

He's not that far off from my own opinion. There are 2 moves I vehemently dislike. Trading for Knight in which they gave up the Laker pick and giving Chandler $52M over 4 years. I think the team is in a good position asset wise, and we really just need to up the overall talent level.

There are 3 very important decisions to make going forward. Who will coach this team next year and beyond? Who to select with our (likely) three 1st round draft picks? And finally, which PG do you keep out of the Bledsoe/Knight duo in order to give Booker the starting spot he rightfully deserves?

OE32 wrote:Who would have thunk, watching that AWFUL 2011-2012 team, that we would have been able to get 4 first round draft picks trading that roster (not to mention Eric Bledsoe)? We also added a first-rounder for nothing by signing and later trading IT. We gave one of those draft picks (Ennis) away, and we sunk the Lakers pick into Knight. But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move. As I mentioned, with this trade, if we don't win the lottery, we'll essentially be in the same position as if we had finished #12-#16 this season and the Lakers lost the lotto, falling to 4 or 5.

This terrible drama has cost us a season, but you've got to be impressed with how well we're positioned going forward. I'm excited to watch the young guys develop. There aren't many teams with which I'd switch places - GSW, MIN... BOS? PHI? Frankly, I like our young guys better than Boston's and Philly's.

GOOOOOO SUNS!!!

carey wrote:

Indy wrote:

OE32 wrote:Who would have thunk, watching that AWFUL 2011-2012 team, that we would have been able to get 4 first round draft picks trading that roster (not to mention Eric Bledsoe)? We also added a first-rounder for nothing by signing and later trading IT. We gave one of those draft picks (Ennis) away, and we sunk the Lakers pick into Knight. But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move. As I mentioned, with this trade, if we don't win the lottery, we'll essentially be in the same position as if we had finished #12-#16 this season and the Lakers lost the lotto, falling to 4 or 5.

This terrible drama has cost us a season, but you've got to be impressed with how well we're positioned going forward. I'm excited to watch the young guys develop. There aren't many teams with which I'd switch places - GSW, MIN... BOS? PHI? Frankly, I like our young guys better than Boston's and Philly's.

GOOOOOO SUNS!!!

OE, are you smoking something?

He's not that far off from my own opinion. There are 2 moves I vehemently dislike. Trading for Knight in which they gave up the Laker pick and giving Chandler $52M over 4 years. I think the team is in a good position asset wise, and we really just need to up the overall talent level.

There are 3 very important decisions to make going forward. Who will coach this team next year and beyond? Who to select with our (likely) three 1st round draft picks? And finally, which PG do you keep out of the Bledsoe/Knight duo in order to give Booker the starting spot he rightfully deserves?

So you think trading Keef for a mid 1st round pick goes a long way to reclaiming the Laker's pick?

iLLmatic wrote:

OE32 wrote:Who would have thunk, watching that AWFUL 2011-2012 team, that we would have been able to get 4 first round draft picks trading that roster (not to mention Eric Bledsoe)? We also added a first-rounder for nothing by signing and later trading IT. We gave one of those draft picks (Ennis) away, and we sunk the Lakers pick into Knight. But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move. As I mentioned, with this trade, if we don't win the lottery, we'll essentially be in the same position as if we had finished #12-#16 this season and the Lakers lost the lotto, falling to 4 or 5.

This terrible drama has cost us a season, but you've got to be impressed with how well we're positioned going forward. I'm excited to watch the young guys develop. There aren't many teams with which I'd switch places - GSW, MIN... BOS? PHI? Frankly, I like our young guys better than Boston's and Philly's.

GOOOOOO SUNS!!!

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Obviously this trade doesn't undo the bad decision of moving the LAL pick for Knight, but it makes up for it a little, considering many thought Markieff was untradeable or that he'd amount to nothing for Phoenix in a deal.

Ring_Wanted wrote:Obviously this trade doesn't undo the bad decision of moving the LAL pick for Knight, but it makes up for it a little, considering many thought Markieff was untradeable or that he'd amount to nothing for Phoenix in a deal.

The LA pick for Knight trade still cannot be evaluated. If the Lakers pick this year and then it ends up a 14-18 pick next year, it will look very different. I think that was part of what McD was considering.

McD's worst trade was the IT trade. He probably should have gotten more. His buddy Danny Ainge probably owes him something for that.

It's still possible that the pick ends up a mediocre one, but still in my opinion it was reckless to move it at that point for a player like Knight. I guess the point is that it was not a sound gamble, although very much like in poker, it can turn out right despite not being the right move.

As for IT, we were forced to dump him given the chemistry issues his signing caused and where the team was in the standings. The problem is that by the time the move was made, the relationship with Dragic was fubare, but I am not mad at that move. If anything I would have done it earlier. I remember that I couldn't wait for dec 15 to arrive to pull that trigger.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:Obviously this trade doesn't undo the bad decision of moving the LAL pick for Knight, but it makes up for it a little, considering many thought Markieff was untradeable or that he'd amount to nothing for Phoenix in a deal.

The LA pick for Knight trade still cannot be evaluated. If the Lakers pick this year and then it ends up a 14-18 pick next year, it will look very different. I think that was part of what McD was considering.

McD's worst trade was the IT trade. He probably should have gotten more. His buddy Danny Ainge probably owes him something for that.

Like Ring said (better than I can), even if it works out that the Lakers pick would convey in the mid 1st range (13-17), trading it for Knight was stupid. His team didn't want to pay him that summer, and we could have still thrown 70 million at him--nobody else was going to do that. He plays the deepest position in the league, and not in the top tier. We gave up a first round pick (even if it turns out to be mid-1st round) for nothing except a couple months of Brandon Knight.

The IT trade was not a bad trade. When you think about it, McD was forced into 3 trades over the last 12 months: Goran/demand, IT/chemistry, Keef/d-bag. We got 4 first round picks out of that. You can argue that we put ourselves in every one of those positions through poor investment/management, but I have a really hard time complaining about what we got back when every GM in the league knew we had to make them.

Indy wrote:

INFORMER wrote:I just got whiplash from all that spin.

No kidding.

Look, I get that the season has sucked, but I think the negativity around here lacks context - if that's spin, whatever. I've been very consistent in my approval of McD's decisions. If trading IT was bad (and I thought we sold low), that's just an indicator of how good the IT signing was - in the end, we acquired a late-1st for nothing. The Knight trade was a step back, but we're essentially back to where we would have been had we not made that move - except that we have Knight rather than Keef. The Dragic trade was MAHvelous (and a big reason why I think signing IT was so great - forcing Dragic out is what put us in a position to get such enormous value for him in trade). We held onto Markieff longer than almost anyone would have liked, and in return, we get a probable lotto pick. I don't even think Chandler was that big of an overpay, considering what's about to happen with the cap. And I don't think Knight is overpaid at all - I just think he's better suited to being a sixth man (and when the cap is $102 m, $13m for your sixth man ain't so bad).

I still think the plan all along has been to move Bledsoe, which will be harder with his most recent injury. I also feel that our long-term PG has yet to be acquired. I've maintained all along that the plan is to build through the draft, and everything outside of that has been for the exclusive purpose of acquiring assets. And the fact is, we are FLUSH.

You can feel bad about having had to watch this team over the last couple seasons (I know I do). But I don't understand how anyone can feel bad about our position at this point. The only thing that would dash my hopes at this point is Sarver letting go of McD. I think he's a brilliant GM. Not perfect, but calculating and deliberate. We put ourselves in the position of being "forced" to trade players - which put the rest of the league in a position of looking at our roster and saying, Hey, the Suns like these players, but they have no choice but to trade them - let's exploit the opportunity! If we were outright shopping players for no good reason, teams might question their quality as basketball players. It hasn't always worked - we didn't good value for IT, for example. But we haven't let anyone get away. Compare with the Hawks or the Rockets or the many other teams who have had or will have to lose players for nothing in free agency. Not us. We always get something to build with going forward.

You call it spin, but I feel like it's just detachment. I'm interested in hope; I'm interested in competing for championships. I have no interest in return to the "malaise" years, when despite the talent on the roster, there was no plausible scenario in which we would move toward contention. I'm much, much happier with where we are now than I was for the years between 1996 and 2002. And I'm astonished at how quickly we've turned a crap roster into young players, valuable contracts and future draft picks.

Say what you will.

Indy wrote: So you think trading Keef for a mid 1st round pick goes a long way to reclaiming the Laker's pick?

Where did I say that?

carey wrote:

Indy wrote: So you think trading Keef for a mid 1st round pick goes a long way to reclaiming the Laker's pick?

Where did I say that?

The comment of mine you replied to had this comment from OE bolded:

But for those of us who have been lamenting the loss of the Lakers pick, this move goes a long way towards rectifying that move.

OE32 wrote:

Indy wrote:

INFORMER wrote:I just got whiplash from all that spin.

No kidding.

Look...Say what you will.

OE, I get optimism. I am all for it. What I don't get are the comments like "hey, so what we forced out Goran, or traded away the Laker's pick for nothing, or invested heavily in the Morrii, we have mostly recovered from those mistakes, so our GM is brilliant." Maybe that isn't spin in your eyes, but it looks like that to me. And I know I completely simplifying your take on those things, so forgive me for that, but I just tried to sum it up how it came across to me.

Either way, we obviously want the same thing, so there is always that we have in common, even if TJ won't be a 25 ppg scorer.

Indy wrote:We gave up a first round pick (even if it turns out to be mid-1st round) for nothing except a couple months of Brandon Knight.

The move was the second crack at having max cap space plus a borderline allstar talent attached to a small cap hold. In that sense, I get it and don't fault McD for pursuing that strategy. Also gave us a better shot at making the playoffs. The problem to me was the specific player targeted. If instead of another combo guard you acquire say a true SG or a PF the move looks way better, or at least more defensible once we get into nuances.

I have a really hard time complaining about what we got back when every GM in the league knew we had to make them.

Agreed.

Indy wrote:

OE32 wrote:

Indy wrote:

INFORMER wrote:I just got whiplash from all that spin.

No kidding.

Look...Say what you will.

OE, I get optimism. I am all for it. What I don't get are the comments like "hey, so what we forced out Goran, or traded away the Laker's pick for nothing, or invested heavily in the Morrii, we have mostly recovered from those mistakes, so our GM is brilliant." Maybe that isn't spin in your eyes, but it looks like that to me. And I know I completely simplifying your take on those things, so forgive me for that, but I just tried to sum it up how it came across to me.

Either way, we obviously want the same thing, so there is always that we have in common, even if TJ won't be a 25 ppg scorer.

Or even a 24.6 PPG scorer! Though I think he would have gotten close playing for the Sixers these last couple years. I still think 20 PPG is realistic. The question is whether he'll bring it on the other end.

It's not just "recovering from" Goran and the MoBros. I was never a fan of either! The fact that we got three valuable picks out of them is what I find laudable. Our "investment" in the Morrii and our forcing Dragic out were, imo, obviously pure positives from an asset perspective, though obviously not from a performance perspective. It isn't easy moving players for picks in today's NBA, but we've managed to do it. We've nearly replicated what Boston achieved mostly by fleecing the Nets by patience and hard work. I applaud it. And I think time will prove this period to have been an intensely productive one, though no fun at all to watch.

OE32 wrote:forcing Dragic out is what put us in a position to get such enormous value for him in trade).

Dragic is the best thing this franchise has had since the WCF in 2010. He should have never left the Suns, and I don't have too much trouble believing he'd be playing waaaay better here than what he is being allowed to do in Miami. Also, the pics are an unknown. Miami is becoming the Phoenix of the 90s. It's a good destination and as long as Riley is in charge there's a good chance the picks are not in the lotto, but we'll see about that. Anaway, alienating Dragic was utterly offensive to me as a Suns fan.

I don't even think Chandler was that big of an overpay, considering what's about to happen with the cap. And I don't think Knight is overpaid at all - I just think he's better suited to being a sixth man (and when the cap is $102 m, $13m for your sixth man ain't so bad).

I agree here.

I still think the plan all along has been to move Bledsoe, which will be harder with his most recent injury.

I don't know about that.

I also feel that our long-term PG has yet to be acquired.

Wouldn't complain at all if the draft delivered us Kris Dunn, for instance.

I've maintained all along that the plan is to build through the draft, and everything outside of that has been for the exclusive purpose of acquiring assets.

This I can't buy. The FO was worked hard towards landing the top free agents the past two summers. And the truth is that it was a solid plan, but became a clusterfuck due to bad execution, but that's all history now. We are truly rebuilding at this point.

Ring_Wanted wrote:

OE32 wrote:forcing Dragic out is what put us in a position to get such enormous value for him in trade).

Dragic is the best thing this franchise has had since the WCF in 2010. He should have never left the Suns, and I don't have too much trouble believing he'd be playing waaaay better here than what he is being allowed to do in Miami. Also, the pics are an unknown. Miami is becoming the Phoenix of the 90s. It's a good destination and as long as Riley is in charge there's a good chance the picks are not in the lotto, but we'll see about that. Anaway, alienating Dragic was utterly offensive to me as a Suns fan.

I really think this is the crux of the distance between myself and so many others on this board. I never believed in Dragic. I thought he was dramatically overrated by Suns fans. When he made All-NBA third team, I guaranteed anyone who would listen that it would never happen again, that he had peaked. He was a likable player, but not a difference-maker. So I was pleased when we forced him out and got picks in return; I took no offense. I noticed the change in people's attitudes toward this organization turned pretty hard when we pushed him out - but I loved it. And I think that emotional difference is a big reason for the difference in opinion.

Ring_Wanted wrote:

OE32 wrote:I've maintained all along that the plan is to build through the draft, and everything outside of that has been for the exclusive purpose of acquiring assets.

This I can't buy. The FO was worked hard towards landing the top free agents the past two summers. And the truth is that it was a solid plan, but became a clusterfuck due to bad execution, but that's all history now. We are truly rebuilding at this point.

Yeah, this part of my opinion is kind of ahistorical. I was under the impression that part of the Aldridge chase was to convince Chandler to sign and to give ourselves an excuse to move Marcus (the player I loathed more than any other while he was in a Suns uniform - I HATE his game). Not that we wouldn't have signed Aldridge if had accepted - I just always thought there was more going on there.

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Dragic is the best thing this franchise has had since the WCF in 2010. He should have never left the Suns, and I don't have too much trouble believing he'd be playing waaaay better here than what he is being allowed to do in Miami. Also, the pics are an unknown. Miami is becoming the Phoenix of the 90s. It's a good destination and as long as Riley is in charge there's a good chance the picks are not in the lotto, but we'll see about that. Anaway, alienating Dragic was utterly offensive to me as a Suns fan.

Did the Suns treat him fairly that season? Not really, but I think Dragic handled it like a god damn baby and I chuckle every time I see a Heat highlight of him standing in the corner while Wade handles the ball.

Wouldn't complain at all if the draft delivered us Kris Dunn, for instance.

Someone needs to sell me on Kris Dunn. I've only seen a few games and his Youtube videos but at the moment I don't understand why he's a top 5 pick. His FG% is alright, 3P% is avg, but he has a very Bledsoe like A/TO ratio. He's averaging almost 4 TOs a game. Is it because he's 6' 4"? Is it the almost 6 rebounds a game? The stats do look very Bledsoe like...

OE32 wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:

OE32 wrote:forcing Dragic out is what put us in a position to get such enormous value for him in trade).

Dragic is the best thing this franchise has had since the WCF in 2010. He should have never left the Suns, and I don't have too much trouble believing he'd be playing waaaay better here than what he is being allowed to do in Miami. Also, the pics are an unknown. Miami is becoming the Phoenix of the 90s. It's a good destination and as long as Riley is in charge there's a good chance the picks are not in the lotto, but we'll see about that. Anaway, alienating Dragic was utterly offensive to me as a Suns fan.

I really think this is the crux of the distance between myself and so many others on this board. I never believed in Dragic. I thought he was dramatically overrated by Suns fans. When he made All-NBA third team, I guaranteed anyone who would listen that it would never happen again, that he had peaked. He was a likable player, but not a difference-maker. So I was pleased when we forced him out and got picks in return; I took no offense. I noticed the change in people's attitudes toward this organization turned pretty hard when we pushed him out - but I loved it. And I think that emotional difference is a big reason for the difference in opinion.

Emotion aside, you have to agree that having a person that could actually play PG would help our team, right?