Phx-Suns.Net

Indy wrote:

virtual9mm wrote:

In2ition wrote:I agree with this take for the most part. I think the juries still out on his drafting genius, as drafting the consensus 2nd and 3rd best PFs in an otherwise seemingly weak draft smacks of trying to make multiple camps happy and not the sign of a real strongly convicted in their vision type of leader.

I'm for giving McD a little longer, but if it doesn't happen, I say bring in Hinkie. At least he had a vision I can get behind. It's all about asset acquisition then transition to major talent hording.

Agree with everything except for the Hinkie part. The Suns have their young assets, if they do a good job this year. The two MIA picks will fill any holes in the roster. So, they need someone to build a team rather than to rip things apart.

Indy wrote: Which of these are excellent?
Which of these are excellent, or even above average?

Draft picks: Booker (not a foregone conclusion), Warren (for a mid-first rounder, he's been really quite good...I wonder what the mystery head injury was, though), and the two rookies this year seem promising. Len was a mediocre lotto pick in a bad draft year, especially if rumors about Noel being red-flagged by the training staff are true; McD could have traded down and grabbed Gobert, but that is the kind of move you applaud a GM for doing but not one you would necessarily castigate your GM for not doing.

Trades: As I've mentioned, McD's done a horrible job managing personnel and egos. What he has done well is to make great trades from a position of weakness. The Dragic trade was spectacular given that he was forced to trade him. Same for M******f. The Bledsoe trade was a stroke of genius. Too bad he whiffed the Knight trade so badly.

Edit -- just saw Split T's list, forgot about the Leuer trade. That was a good one, too.

The Bobster wrote:He also made a good S&T getting Thomas, but then erased that by trading him and his extremely favorable contract.

It is impossible to get on McD's case for trading away Thomas for a late 1st rounder, without remembering that this was a net gain generated by a bit of available cap space. Sure, I would have rather kept Thomas than getting Knight. But in net terms, McD converted cap space into a 1st rounder.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Good to see you, v9! I agree with this for the most part. Most of all I agree that we need a PASS-FIRST PG on this team. Please, McDo??

Lonzo Ball, please!

I guess when I see someone clean up a giant mess they created, and it isn't quite as good as it was before the mess happened, I don't call it excellence, or even competence. You wouldn't need the heroics if you just stopped f*cking up. (And I realize it isn't fair to blame the entire Morrii fiasco at his doorstep, so I do applaud him for getting rid of those guys.)

I think that we're on the same page, as I emphasized that McD's been horrible at managing personnel but good with drafting and trades. His strength in the latter somewhat compensates for his weakness in the former. But you need both to be a legendary GM.

He has been adequate with drafting and (if we ignore his one YUGE blunder) trades. I wouldn't call it a strength.

The thing with McD is, with the obvious exception of Knight, that most of his trades make sense at the time they are made but hindisght has hit him hard. I don't know if you can punish him for this but people want results and instead we've been dealt ugly and dumb every year but 13-14.

About his drafting, I think just Booker gives him enough credit. At #13 I'll always keep in mind that we could be looking merely at Dekker, Oubre JR or Montrelz.

Anyone who holds against the guy taking Len instead of Gobert (let alone the freak) is intelectually dishonest imo, and the other centers in the '13 draft all come with their fair share of limitations so I don't think think Len is a fail. Probably a simple C, with some fluctuations between C- and B.

Warren at #14 was a very nice pick value in my eyes. I see other talented guys in Harris, Hood, Nurkic or Capela but again, there were rumblings of Adreian Payne and some people loved Kyle Anderson. It's just that poor TJ can't catch a break. First buried by Hornacek (when he was absolutely as ready as a rookie as he was in year two or now), then two injuries the following seasons right when he was starting to show his authomatic offense.

Biggest problem to me is probably how he has dealt with unhappy players, or to be more precise, how a unhealthy environment was created directly by some of his moves. This is a GM who, while not perfect, obviously understands the concept of value and opportunity. Still, you can't disregard the human side and chemistry.

Besides Knight, I have my own qualms (not making a move to secure the playoffs in 13-14, for instance) I'm positive that if he is let go he won't have the slightest problem finding another job, and if I had to bet under that scenario, we'd be looking at 1.- a worse replacement and 2.- he finding success elsewhere.

Ring_Wanted wrote:The thing with McD is, with the obvious exception of Knight, that most of his trades make sense at the time they are made but hindisght has hit him hard. I don't know if you can punish him for this but people want results and instead we've been dealt ugly and dumb every year but 13-14.

About his drafting, I think just Booker gives him enough credit. At #13 I'll always keep in mind that we could be looking merely at Dekker, Oubre JR or Montrelz.

Anyone who holds against the guy taking Len instead of Gobert (let alone the freak) is intelectually dishonest imo, and the other centers in the '13 draft all come with their fair share of limitations so I don't think think Len is a fail. Probably a simple C, with some fluctuations between C- and B.

Warren at #14 was a very nice pick value in my eyes. I see other talented guys in Harris, Hood, Nurkic or Capela but again, there were rumblings of Adreian Payne and some people loved Kyle Anderson. It's just that poor TJ can't catch a break. First buried by Hornacek (when he was absolutely as ready as a rookie as he was in year two or now), then two injuries the following seasons right when he was starting to show his authomatic offense.

Biggest problem to me is probably how he has dealt with unhappy players, or to be more precise, how a unhealthy environment was created directly by some of his moves. This is a GM who, while not perfect, obviously understands the concept of value and opportunity. Still, you can't disregard the human side and chemistry.

Besides Knight, I have my own qualms (not making a move to secure the playoffs in 13-14, for instance) I'm positive that if he is let go he won't have the slightest problem finding another job, and if I had to bet under that scenario, we'd be looking at 1.- a worse replacement and 2.- he finding success elsewhere.

I think that is a very fair evaluation of McDonough. I have liked most of the moves he has made, at the time he made them. However far too many of them have turned sour.

Quite frankly I do not see the reason for the support of guys like Hinkie. I also do not see a good replacement for Watson. I think most of us are just frustrated with all the losses for 7 years, with no real indication that we are going to get better in the near future. Maybe Ryan drafts a stud in June and signs a legit free agent to speed up the process in July. I am tired of rooting for our team to lose so that we can get a higher draft pick.

Ring_Wanted wrote: About his drafting, I think just Booker gives him enough credit. At #13 I'll always keep in mind that we could be looking merely at Dekker, Oubre JR or Montrelz.

He gets some credit for making the right pick there, but not a whole lot because it was also the obvious pick. In the draft thread, I think we were unanimous about wanting Booker at #13. If making that selection demonstrates competence as an NBA GM, we should all start sending our resumes to NBA teams.

I think Len was a solid pick at 5, we've just done a poor job developing him. I didn't love Warren because I don't think his game translates well to the NBA given he's not a great shooter.

ShelC wrote:I think Len was a solid pick at 5, we've just done a poor job developing him. I didn't love Warren because I don't think his game translates well to the NBA given he's not a great shooter.

I think that is a very fair take, although I would say that as the boss, it is Ryan's job to hire the right people, and create the proper incentive, to develop the players he acquires/selects.

virtual9mm wrote: I think that we're on the same page, as I emphasized that McD's been horrible at managing personnel but good with drafting and trades. His strength in the latter somewhat compensates for his weakness in the former. But you need both to be a legendary GM.

Fair enough, but I would say you need both to be a better than average GM.

And I know I am bashing Ryan, but I think he is very smart and well suited to be a great #2 guy in the FO. We (as we typically do), take good to great #2s and try and make then #1s.

I think that is a very fair take, although I would say that as the boss, it is Ryan's job to hire the right people, and create the proper incentive, to develop the players he acquires/selects.

It's a tricky thing. I think teams always want to speed up the process for getting guys physically ready to play, which usually falls on the trainers. Our training staff is tops, but I hate that they bulked him up so quickly. He didn't have a low center of gravity to begin, and all the upper body weight he added only made him more top heavy and took away from his agility. Coming out, I thought he was agile enough to play some 4.

And McD was also the one to sign Chandler and relegate Len to a backup role. Can't fault him for trying to hit a homerun with Aldridge, but it's impacted Len greatly.

It makes me wonder though, just how far Aldridge would have taken us. Playoffs definitely.

...and then maybe the 2nd round? I know I didn't see LMA as a franchise piece back then, just an impediment to the rebuild.

Charlie Smithy! wrote:It makes me wonder though, just how far Aldridge would have taken us. Playoffs definitely.

...and then maybe the 2nd round? I know I didn't see LMA as a franchise piece back then, just an impediment to the rebuild.

Yep, probably would have been reminiscent of the "malaise" years.

Yeah, I think it's weird how McD talks about that one as swinging for the fences. When we tried to add LeBron to a 48-win team in '15, that was swinging for the fences. LMA would have been a double at best.

Cap wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote: About his drafting, I think just Booker gives him enough credit. At #13 I'll always keep in mind that we could be looking merely at Dekker, Oubre JR or Montrelz.

He gets some credit for making the right pick there, but not a whole lot because it was also the obvious pick. In the draft thread, I think we were unanimous about wanting Booker at #13. If making that selection demonstrates competence as an NBA GM, we should all start sending our resumes to NBA teams.

Hum. I've been told that but still doesn't convince me. It's a funny situation. If the GM does something different from what we want and it doesn't turn out well, he is an idiot. If he does as we want and it goes great, he is just ok. I see lack of proportionality somewhere in there.

And in the end, I have a hard time agreeing with the premise that Booker was the obvious pick. As a general principle, I see no obvious pick at #13. In this specific case, you could have walked away from the draft with a handful of different prospects and nobody would have claimed for Booker (I was on here too hehe).

JustWinBaby wrote:Quite frankly I do not see the reason for the support of guys like Hinkie. I also do not see a good replacement for Watson. I think most of us are just frustrated with all the losses for 7 years, with no real indication that we are going to get better in the near future. Maybe Ryan drafts a stud in June and signs a legit free agent to speed up the process in July. I am tired of rooting for our team to lose so that we can get a higher draft pick.

Hinkie will have another NBA job soon enough. He was made a pariah but time is treating him well after his departure. Like I said at the time, his problem was not the process itself, but the specific players he picked. At a certain point he had his franchise losing like no other team ever had while having basically nothing to show for it. He drafted an injuried center, another injuried center, an international prospect that took years to show up and yet another center (supposedly pushed by his FO as he was said to want Porzingis). This is what made him a public clown, neglecting his otherwise good rebuilding moves like those small four year contracts or taking salary dumps for picks. Embiid cures all though.

I read that Hinkie (probably the article Carey posted recently) was mostly critized for his media handling and bad PR. He didn't find someone to handle it in time and it pissed owners off.

I'm very sorry that he wasn't allowed to see his experiment through. I guess the tank would stop next year, and it's not like they're doing great this year anyway (not without Embiid, and Embiid would play with Hinkie as GM as well). He'd probably fleece someone with Noel/Okafor, draft a PG and went into the next year full steam. If he reallly wanted to draft Porzingis, I hope Philly FO is pulling their hair out.

Edit: it's funny how nobody seems to care about lottery reform anymore. Maybe if health allows the sixers to kick ass in 2 years, they will have to worry about it again.

Those talks demonizing Hinkie and clamoring for a lotto revamp were a big overreaction. The draft is perfectible for sure but the 76rs did nothing wrong in my opinion and objectively tanking has always been a thing. This guy simply chose to go this route without trying to dissimulate it. Never saw why the fuss. If his FO was willing to endure the pain, let them have it.

Ring_Wanted wrote:Those talks demonizing Hinkie and clamoring for a lotto revamp were a big overreaction. The draft is perfectible for sure but the 76rs did nothing wrong in my opinion and objectively tanking has always been a thing. This guy simply chose to go this route without trying to dissimulate it. Never saw why the fuss. If his FO was willing to endure the pain, let them have it.

I wouldn't say that clamoring for a lotto reform was an overreaction as I think that losing should never benefit the team. Other than that I agree.

Could you image a Sixers team with Porzingis, Embiid, Simmons (with refined jump shot), Noel, and a stud PG and possibly SG this year playing next year? That would be a fun team to follow.

Ring_Wanted wrote:Those talks demonizing Hinkie and clamoring for a lotto revamp were a big overreaction. The draft is perfectible for sure but the 76rs did nothing wrong in my opinion and objectively tanking has always been a thing. This guy simply chose to go this route without trying to dissimulate it. Never saw why the fuss. If his FO was willing to endure the pain, let them have it.

I disagree. Hinkie trotted out some of the worst line ups the NBA has ever seen. He made a mockery of NBA competition. The whole reason for the lottery was to discourage tanking, yet he did it for multiple years. Its one thing to go with younger players. But Hinkie went beyond that. I think the league office agreed with this.

JMO.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:Those talks demonizing Hinkie and clamoring for a lotto revamp were a big overreaction. The draft is perfectible for sure but the 76rs did nothing wrong in my opinion and objectively tanking has always been a thing. This guy simply chose to go this route without trying to dissimulate it. Never saw why the fuss. If his FO was willing to endure the pain, let them have it.

I disagree. Hinkie trotted out some of the worst line ups the NBA has ever seen. He made a mockery of NBA competition. The whole reason for the lottery was to discourage tanking, yet he did it for multiple years. Its one thing to go with younger players. But Hinkie went beyond that. I think the league office agreed with this.

JMO.

I totally understand that, but he was just playing the game with the rules set in place. Time will tell if he did the right thing, and it took a long time to start seeing positive results of his plan. I think we can start to see that it's going to work out quite well, as long as everyone stays healthy. Don't hate the player, hate the game.