Phx-Suns.Net

Mori Chu wrote:I hope you are right. But Sarver isn't typically willing to overpay a player, even if he likes that player. What if somebody offers Dragic the max?

The other awkwardness comes from Bledsoe's contract. Don't you have to give Dragic essentially the same amount? If you give one more or less than the other, doesn't that lead to awkwardness in the locker room? So if you want to steal Dragic, don't you just offer him more than Bledsoe is making?

Also, Dragic is a UFA. He may be Sarver's guy, but if he decides that he wants to leave, there isn't really anything Sarver or McDo can do about that.

if the suns dont make the playoffs this year, and he, bleds, and IT are still around, dont expect him back next season.

Sunsfan4life wrote:

INFORMER wrote:Teams aren't even sure you can split up the Twins. And the interest in acquiring both of them isn't high.

No evidence to support that. This is your opinion.

Actually, Babby himself backed that up. He said one of the things working in the Suns favor in the negotiations is that it wasn't going to be likely that the Twins could find a team that would bring them both in.

And then last year there was an article where a scout was giving his read on the Suns, and he specifically expressed concern that the Twins may not be able to thrive apart.

Sunsfan4life wrote:

INFORMER wrote: And despite being expiring, teams are looking to acquire Dragic. I know you think an expiring contract makes a player nearly valueless on the trade market, but with players as good as Dragic it is a different story. It may have an effect on his value, but not to this extent.

You have no evidence to support that. The only teams that have been linked to the suns about trading for Dragic was Indiana this fall and it was for Roy Hibbert.

Wrong:

Report: Multiple teams contacting Suns trying to trade for Goran Dragic

you cant cheat or lie on the internets, somebodys gonna find out sooner or later...

Mori Chu wrote:The discussion has gotten a bit emotional. Kieff is a talented player who keeps improving. He took a huge leap last year, and he's taken another leap this year. That's impressive. He's become a very effective scorer. He's not great at rebounding or defense, so as a PF he's limited in some ways. I like him a lot and feel like we have our starting PF, that we don't need to find a better one to fix Kieff's flaws. His current skill level and expected natural development going forward are enough for me.

I've stated a number of times that I'd love to make Kieff the 6th man again. Actually, I'd look to create a 'thug' mob off the bench with his brother and IT3+.

At this point the idea of making Markieff a bench player is ludicrous and will never happen, so anybody who suggests trading for / signing some stud PF and bringing Kieff in off the bench just gets an eye roll from me.

Good to know.

In this particular context, we are talking about trade value. You can't trade the Morris brothers separately any more; they're a package deal.

There is no rule against trading them separately. Other than maybe the GM's word, but we don't know that, only that they agreed to that price to make sure the same team signed them both. If it comes down to it, and if they are real professionals, they will get split and they will have to suck it up. This is a business, etc, and Woj or ESPN will write a piece about the major challenge each twin faces on their own for the first time, etc.

Oh, and despite being 'average', I want to give Marcus a shoutout. He has improved too, on defense, and his 3pt/midrange shot is still solid. Not spectacular but he is useful, in other words. At 5M per, he is not overpaid in my eyes, which is something that to me, remained to be seen during this season.

I do agree with INF's statement that teams want to acquire Dragic.

Of course they want. I am sure they also want to acquire Wes Mathews, or Paul Millsap. But do you see anyone spending premium assets for maybe three months of them? Same with Dragic. That's what being expiring does to trade value, I don't think I am discovering anything here.

Now, if/when Goran is inked to a new and hopefully reasonable deal, his trade value will be again above Kieff's, but at this moment there is room for debate, at the very least, which if I am not mistaken is the whole point of this discussion. With some thinking that said notion is ridiculous and others actually supporting it or at least pondering its merits.

Actually, Babby himself backed that up. He said one of the things working in the Suns favor in the negotiations is that it wasn't going to be likely that the Twins could find a team that would bring them both in.

And then last year there was an article where a scout was giving his read on the Suns, and he specifically expressed concern that the Twins may not be able to thrive apart.

I'm sure it made it easier for the Suns to sign Markieff that they have Marcus too, I mean who wouldn't want to live and work with there best friend/brother? Thats what Babby was saying, he wasn't saying They signed a joint contract that if we trade one the other must follow. Do you really think Kieff retires if we trade him without his brother? And just because you don't like Marcus Morris doesn't mean every other GM has the same opinion.

As for your one random NBA Scout, thats just as good as someone saying "sources are telling me" Its a baseless opinon because that scout could be the same guy who thought drafting Anthony Bennet #1 was a good idea. We don't know.

Wrong:

Report: Multiple teams contacting Suns trying to trade for Goran Dragic

That Link doesn't give me anymore insight into what Goran's trade value is. Again, the only team linked to actually making an offer for Dragic was Indiana for Hibbert. Teams "calling" about breaking up our 3 guards to check there availability is different then actually making an offer. The whole argument your trying to make is Dragic, right now, is worth more then Morris, or that its even ridiculous to consider he isn't. 28yr old Goran Dragic on an expiring deal will bring back more then 25 yr old Markieff Morris on a long term deal and that its "ridiculous" to think otherwise. Just so we're clear what the disagreement is.

Now, if/when Goran is inked to a new and hopefully reasonable deal, his trade value will be again above Kieff's, but at this mement there is room for debate, at the very least, which if I am not mistaken is the whole point of this discussion. With some thinking that said notion is ridiculous and others actually supporting it or at least pondering its merits.

100% This.

I've stated a number of times that I'd love to make Kieff the 6th man again. Actually, I'd look to create a 'thug' mob off the bench with his brother and IT3+.

keep keef as a starter. get amare once ny let's him go.

Sunsfan4life wrote:Thats what Babby was saying, he wasn't saying They signed a joint contract that if we trade one the other must follow. Do you really think Kieff retires if we trade him without his brother?

You're missing my point. I'm saying Babby backed up the point that around the league, interest is limited in having the twins on the same team.

And no, I don't think Kieff retires if he is split from his brother. But I think any reasonable GM is going to see how uniquely and intensely close they are and will think twice before trading for just Markieff, especially with four years left on his deal.

Ring_Wanted wrote: Of course they want. I am sure they also want to acquire Wes Mathews, or Paul Millsap. But do you see anyone spending premium assets for maybe three months of them?

That question is a complete non-starter. First, Goran Dragic and Wes Matthews are on completely different levels. Secondly, you're speculating on a situation that doesn't exist. Who says Atlanta is even willing to move Millsap or Portland is willing to move Matthews? In fact, it's very reasonable to believe neither player is even available, especially in the case of Millsap.

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Wrong:

Report: Multiple teams contacting Suns trying to trade for Goran Dragic

That Link doesn't give me anymore insight into what Goran's trade value is. Again, the only team linked to actually making an offer for Dragic was Indiana for Hibbert. Teams "calling" about breaking up our 3 guards to check there availability is different then actually making an offer.

Hold on now. You said the only teams linked to trading for Dragic is Indiana. That link says otherwise. Does it not count because it doesn't mention what the teams are offering? It establishes that multiple teams are linked to pursuing Dragic, which you said to the contrary. Yes, it does mention they are gauging the Suns interest in breaking up the 3 point guards, but it also mentions that Dragic has garnered the most attention. Let's not have selective reading.

But to your point that the article doesn't tell you more about his trade value: show me reports of teams calling about acquiring Markieff Morris.

You are basing your argument on this: They have called about Goran, they haven't about Kieff/twins. Hence Goran's trade value is higher.

What if the reason they are calling is because they smell blood in the water? You know, because he is expiring and could be possible to acquire him for less than his regular value given that he could be gone in little time while there are other PGs on the roster. I take it as the due dilligence when a player of his caliber seems to be in a dubious status.

And about Mathews and Millsap, what I am pointing at is the decreased value of good players under expiring contracts. Not their actual availability or wether the current team is interested or actively trying to move the player. Is Goran Dragic being shopped, or available, or has he asked for a move and I am not aware of it or what.

INFORMER wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote: Of course they want. I am sure they also want to acquire Wes Mathews, or Paul Millsap. But do you see anyone spending premium assets for maybe three months of them?

That question is a complete non-starter. First, Goran Dragic and Wes Matthews are on completely different levels. Secondly, you're speculating on a situation that doesn't exist. Who says Atlanta is even willing to move Millsap or Portland is willing to move Matthews? In fact, it's very reasonable to believe neither player is even available, especially in the case of Millsap.

Or Phoenix is willing to move Dragic? It's very reasonable to believe he isn't available.

Ring_Wanted wrote:You are basing your argument on this: They have called about Goran, they haven't about Kieff/twins. Hence Goran's trade value is higher.

Teams call about players they're interested in. Even if they aren't "available." I'm sure the Suns have at least fielded a call or two for Markieff, both before and after the extension. But if Markieff was this hot trade commodity, and had more value than Goran Dragic, then we would have heard something. Even in the offseason, before the extensions went down, did we hear anything about teams watching intently to see if Markieff would sign an extension? Or that he would be a big target on the free agent market in 2015? Or perhaps he's been so dominant this season that his value has skyrocketed? In which case, again, I think we would have heard "buzz" about him. I mean we're even hearing about teams calling about Archie Goodwin, but then again, he is a future superstar.

Ring_Wanted wrote:And about Mathews and Millsap, what I am pointing at is the decreased value of good players under expiring contracts.

But I'll ask you what y'all have been asking me: what is that based on? But first, we can stop talking about Matthews. He's a role player, and regardless of his contract status, no one is giving up a "premium asset" for him.

So that leaves us with Millsap. And I'm still not seeing anything about him that offers anything to your point about "decreased value of good players under expiring contracts."

HIghlights of Warren and Ennis in the D-League:

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/warren-enn ... sfield-win

Warren't gone for 34 in both his games. Ennis had 29 last game.

Informer, I believe a good player under control holds more trade value than the same good player on an expiring contract, unless the player has agreed to staying with the team that trades for him.

In case 'A' I pay more than in case 'B'. In case 'A' there is no risk of losing the player for nothing.

Call it just an opinion because no Moses descended from mt Sinai to present us such truth set in stone, I know it.

Now you can keep talking about the two examples I used, if you want. But you are missing the point, at least mine. Trade value. Not availability, or the motivations of the current the team.

Ring_Wanted wrote: Call it just an opinion because no Moses descended from mt Sinai to present us such truth set in stone, I know it.

Actually, it was on the tablet he dropped.

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INFORMER wrote:I mean we're even hearing about teams calling about Archie Goodwin, but then again, he is a future superstar.

True dat.

On Dragic v Matthews: Dragic may be a level above Matthews, but for our team, Matthews would be an upgrade. Better shooter, better defender.

On defense generally: I'm starting to wonder if the big reason for our woeful interior D comes from our commitment to stopping the 3-point shot. We guard the line so closely that we end up allowing penetration. I'll see if that theory meets the eye test.

On Dragic: Coro's most recent article discussed how Dragic has struggled as a defender at the 2 spot. I like to keep in mind, when I read Coro, that he is not that detached from the organization. I wonder if there's an element of wanting to prepare the fan base for a trade. I know, highly speculative.

On TJ: I have yet to see him look like he's giving 100% effort since Summer League. He's positively sleepy on defense.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ree-Agency

I really don't like our chances of re-signing him, actually. It's not really an ideal pairing for either party. Why pay $15m+ for a guy who doesn't improve your team because of the position you play him at?

That said, even if we do think he's leaving, it's unclear to me whether it would be a good idea to trade him. I think it's highly unlikely. I think he'll simply walk.

OE32 wrote:On Dragic v Matthews: Dragic may be a level above Matthews, but for our team, Matthews would be an upgrade. Better shooter, better defender.

On defense generally: I'm starting to wonder if the big reason for our woeful interior D comes from our commitment to stopping the 3-point shot. We guard the line so closely that we end up allowing penetration. I'll see if that theory meets the eye test.

On Dragic: Coro's most recent article discussed how Dragic has struggled as a defender at the 2 spot. I like to keep in mind, when I read Coro, that he is not that detached from the organization. I wonder if there's an element of wanting to prepare the fan base for a trade. I know, highly speculative.

On TJ: I have yet to see him look like he's giving 100% effort since Summer League. He's positively sleepy on defense.

Idk, I think he kind of has that Bledsoe thing going. Sort of stoic? I saw the D-League highlights and not only did he seem bigger than I thought he really was just flat better than everyone out there. So he needs to figure out how to rev that motor for every game.