Phx-Suns.Net

Cap wrote:Can't shoot more than five feet from the basket?

wright cant do pick and pops.

Ring_Wanted wrote:I am desperate to get a real pick and roll partner for Dragic. I've even thought about David Lee, but Amare might be an option. 12-5 off the bench at PF could represent a nice try at salvaging the season.

I'd still try to move some rotation players, though.

but they (dragic and frye) never did a lot of pick and rolls either. what got grantland and zach lowe's attention was their highly rated pick and pop plays.

they call it pick and roll, but i have never seen frye "roll" to the basket

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/how-t ... evolution/

Recent player-tracking data analytics suggest that the Dragic–Channing Frye pairing is the most efficient pick-and-roll tandem in the league. According to the data, the Suns are averaging a ridiculous 1.3 points per possession on the 392 Dragic-Frye pick-and-rolls this season.

People around the league have noticed:


Dragic is quick to point out that the return of Frye — the team’s most vital spacing agent — has been central to Phoenix’s dramatic offensive improvements. “Last year he had some heart problems and couldn’t play with us, so when I played pick-and-roll I didn’t have that space guy,” he says. “This year, when we play pick-and-roll, Channing stretches the floor so I have room to operate; I can get inside the paint and make other plays for him and everybody else. He just gives us that spacing, and especially for me and Eric he makes things much easier because nobody can rotate from him.”

Nobody can rotate away from Frye; there are very few bigs in the league who can shoot from distance as well as he can.



Frye says the keys to their pick-and-roll success are quick recognition and smart decisions to create defensive stresses.

“Goran is an extremely prolific scorer and for me it’s about establishing that I’m going to set a good screen every single time and try to get my guy to get off Goran’s body,” Frye said. “If Goran’s guy goes under, it’s Goran’s job to be able to shoot that shot and my job to give him the space to shoot it in. If my guy stays on Goran, it’s my job to create space for myself to get an open shot. You know, I’ve got to assess this within milliseconds, but we’ve been good at it. Goran’s been aggressive and smart, while I’ve been pretty good at hitting the shots that I’ve been given and trying to make the right decisions.”

Frye takes more 3s than 2s, and his ability to drain those 3s is worth far more than just the handful of points that directly result from those baskets. It’s a constant threat that demands defensive attention and changes the defensive tactics in a way that opens up the interior for his attacking teammates. Frye’s proficient above-the-break shot is arguably the most important in the whole offense, and it obviously wasn’t there last year.

But this season, the Suns run a terrifying pick-and-pop that results in Frye threatening near the top of the arc and, as he says, puts the defense in a horrible predicament:

“If you have penetrators like Goran there’s no way the defense can stop the ball and get back to the shooter in time, especially with me because I’m almost 7 feet tall and have a pretty quick release,” Frye said. “It’s just a matter of who is doing what on the defense, and our offense making the decision from there.”

Frye has a gravitational pull that forces bigs away from the rim, creating attacking corridors for Dragic, who excels at “turning the corner,” attacking the basket, and making plays. In turn, Dragic’s attacking abilities create wide-open looks for Frye or other perimeter shooters. This symbiosis is the heart of the Suns’ offensive ecosystem, and it is by no means an accident.

Ring_Wanted wrote: I've even thought about David Lee, but Amare might be an option.

I'd love to trade the Morris Twins for David Lee. But then again, who wouldn't I trade the Morris Twins for?

INFORMER wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote: I've even thought about David Lee, but Amare might be an option.

I'd love to trade the Morris Twins for David Lee. But then again, who wouldn't I trade the Morris Twins for?

My 44 year old uncle Mike?

Nope, I'd pull the trigger in a second on that deal. Great cap relief.

INFORMER wrote:Nope, I'd pull the trigger in a second on that deal. Great cap relief.

Now you are just being ridiculous. Don't you know Mike has a $20M cap hold?

Ugh. Back to the drawing board.

INFORMER wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote: I've even thought about David Lee, but Amare might be an option.

I'd love to trade the Morris Twins for David Lee. But then again, who wouldn't I trade the Morris Twins for?

I can understand your frustration with the Morrii, but you do understand Markieff's importance to the team as currently constructed, don't you? We're +8.4/48 with him on the floor and -8.1/48 without him. That's the difference between a contender for the title and a contender for the #1 pick. We are a terrible team without Markieff, and we don't ship him out unless tanking is the plan.

Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.

And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.

Cap, I'm pretty sure the formula you're trying to come up with is called adjusted plus minus. There are also Rate Adjusted Plus Minus (RAPM) and Real Plus Minus (RPM) out there.

I don't want Markieff off the team. I want our glut of guards and SFs who don't help us win off the team.

Shabazz wrote:Cap, I'm pretty sure the formula you're trying to come up with is called adjusted plus minus. There are also Rate Adjusted Plus Minus (RAPM) and Real Plus Minus (RPM) out there.

I think it's basically Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus, but since the people behind these stats don't publish their algorithms (at least, anywhere I have found) it's hard to know.

BTW, this reminds me, I used to have a model that estimated team quality based on point differential and schedule difficulty. I was doing it for a couple of years before Jeff Sagarin started getting a lot of attention by publishing results that were nearly identical to my own, presumably from a very similar model.

INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.

And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.

this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef

Regularized. That's it.

SDC wrote:

INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.

And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.

this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef

Yeah. If we can trade him for somebody who's just like him but gets a few more rebounds and less technicals, I'm all for it. I think we have a better chance of getting that guy by developing Keef than by trading him.

Kieff is a monster 6th man. Under a win now mindset I'd focus on trading for a veteran PF that allows you to play him off the bench while maximizing Dragic's talent. Let Kieff and his brother thug other backups.

This roster needs to shed some bodies to become a healthy group. Like many have been saying, redundancy and lack of IQ are the bugs that ail our rotations, and that's even before getting to the rookies. You try to fix it by making a trade now or by letting Dragic, Green or both go next summer. Needless to say, I prefer the first option.

Put out there one IT3, Tucker, Plumlee and maybe a pick and see what's the best you can get, addition by substraction included. The usual suspects. David West, David Lee, Ryan Anderson, Taj Gibson, etc. If you are feeling frisky, Al Jefferson or Brook Lopez to play twin towers with Len.

Markieff Morris is a starting NBA power forward, period. If you think you can just trade pieces for some other PF and slide Kieff to the bench, you're crazy. He's having his best year of his career and has more than proven himself worthy as a starter. Shifting him to the bench like that would not be tolerated. It'd be like if we hired some new coach and tried to shift Hornacek to be the assistant; wouldn't fly.

If you don't want Markieff as our starting PF, you have to ship him out. You can't ask him to become some kind of monster 6th man any more. That ship has sailed.

Mori Chu wrote:Markieff Morris is a starting NBA power forward, period. If you think you can just trade pieces for some other PF and slide Kieff to the bench, you're crazy. He's having his best year of his career and has more than proven himself worthy as a starter. Shifting him to the bench like that would not be tolerated. It'd be like if we hired some new coach and tried to shift Hornacek to be the assistant; wouldn't fly.

If you don't want Markieff as our starting PF, you have to ship him out. You can't ask him to become some kind of monster 6th man any more. That ship has sailed.

I see his faults, but have to agree with Mori here. There are a couple PFs that could easily move him to the bench, and there are a couple more that I would prefer but might not be seen as a clear upgrade by the rest of the team/world. So your options of having a starting PF that isn't Keef, with Keef on the team is almost nil.

There are many examples of starting caliber players who have been used off the bench. Some are/were even better than the starter. Some are/were better players than Markieff Morris. And being a 6th man doesn't mean he can't finish games (Taj Gibson, for instance).

I am surprised that you are so vehement about this but regardless, everybody has their vision on what this team needs or could use. On the other hand, I find your Hornacek analogy way off the mark.

Back to Kieff, I have been one of his biggest 'defenders', and his 15ppg and go to moves are undeniably great, but the team needs more toughness on D/R and less one on one on offense. If he improves there, I'd be satisfied and wouldn't think about putting him back in the 6th man role.

Obviously, the PF I am talking about is not a Brandon Bass, Trevor Booker or the likes. It has to be a player with pedigree so the case to bench Kieff is actually defensible. A former allstar like West or Lee, for instance. We know they are not at the top of their game anymore, but they know how to set a screen, cut to the basket and make a midrange shot too.

With such move I believe the Suns would achieve a better half court two man game with Dragic/Bledsoe in pick and roll/pop situations. Moreover, a verteran presence could work wonders for this inexperienced and often chaotic group. This way you are also getting a stronger bench while allowing Markieff and Marcus play together more time. Add a garbage guy like Wright at C, a pass first PG like Ennis and basically whatever at SG and you have a terrific second unit.