Suns News: Week 5 (11/17 - 11/23)

[Superbone]

KD vs No KD.

KD wasn't in charge of how the team should play. In fact, he later said he wasn't being used properly.

[ShelC]

The offense was the same 2 years in a row because KD wasn't interested in buying into Vogel or Bud and that spilled over to everyone else. No one was getting KD to buy in, short of a coach like Ime or maybe JVG. Dude is a cancer unless things are exactly the way he wants it. I'm not defending Bud, just saying KD had much more of a negative effect on things.

[Superbone]

The offense was the same 2 years in a row because KD wasn't interested in buying into Vogel or Bud and that spilled over to everyone else. No one was getting KD to buy in, short of a coach like Ime or maybe JVG. Dude is a cancer unless things are exactly the way he wants it. I'm not defending Bud, just saying KD had much more of a negative effect on things.

Wow. So you think KD imposed his will over both Vogel and Bud? And just played how he wanted to play? You could be right but if so, he was more of a cancer than I could have ever imagined. What about now in Houston? They seem to be playing pretty well.

[ShelC]

It's not even about imposing his will but what power did Vogel or Bud have? Call out KD, challenge him or bench him for not sticking to the offense or playing hard on defense? We were in "championship mode" and no coach will alienate a guy like KD or it'll be their job. He was the alpha and I even said Book was deferring to him out of respect. Beal didn't care because he was third wheel which had him checked out mentally (plus Bud wanting him to be Jrue Holiday smh). We weren't running any offense for those two years. Maybe a few actions initially but it always just turned into one guy ISO'ing.

KD always wanted to play for Udoka. Udoka's the kind of the former player/hard ass coach KD respects. He wanted Udoka to take over for Nash in BK and is a big reason he wanted to go to Houston.

[Split T]

We had a top 10 offense the last 2 years. I’m not sayingKD doesn’t deserve criticism for the last 2 years, he clearly does, but our offense wasn’t one of the 3 biggest problems. Blame KD for no one else wanting to play defense I guess, but I prefer to blame the ones not playing defense. It’s on Booker, Grayson, and Royce for not playing hard on D last year, not KD.

I also think blaming KD implies this team wouldn’t work if say we swapped KD for Royce, but of course it would. I mean Houston is managing to play hard around KD so it seems to be possible.

[ShelC]

Whatever the numbers said about our offense is proof you can't just look at numbers/analytics. At no point did we ever look like a top 10 offense. We got by because we had good offensive players but there was never any reliable offense, consistent principles or connectivity. It was smoke and mirrors, like the 8-1 record we started with.

I don't think this team would be working like it is by replacing Royce with KD because we'd still have the possibility of KD not buying in on Ott. KD was already bought in on Udoka and the Rockets had their culture and roster in place, same as GS. All KD has to do is show up and score. If the FO/ownership thought it was just a coaching problem then KD would be here with an extension. They saw KD up close and knew he needed to go. Book is now back to being Book and Brooks is bringing the kind of leadership we were lacking. That filters down to the rest of the team in a positive way.

[Split T]

We were pretty good that first year with Monty and that was with nothing good around Book/KD.

I don’t disagree that there were problems with the offense, but I don’t feel like giving everyone else a pass and just assuming it was KD. Vogel and Bud were the coaches and it was their job to create more of a structure. The biggest problem with the offense is we never stopped anyone and we had to play in the half court almost every possession. KD ISO/Post plays were actually quite efficient plays for us.

[ShelC]

KD came here in part because of Monty. But that was also like a 20 game sample size near the end of the year and it was still ISO heavy with less CP PnRs.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Guys like Vogel and Bud can't make superstars play hard or buy-in. They weren't good fits and the roster wasn't great. But we've seen plenty of Suns teams try hard on defense even if they weren't good at it and still play fast and shoot 3s. And if your supposed best player - KD - is dogging it, most everyone else will.

[Split T]

To be clear, I don’t think KD is without blame. KD didn’t want to play fast, hustle, etc, but I don’t blame him for the rest of the roster playing lazy. That’s on the coach and the players. To be fair, I think it became clear early on that we weren’t going to be very good and that’s why most checked out. The offense needed to be elite and it was just good. Credit to Vogel though as he actually had a decent defense.

I just think KD was our best player. Does he deserve some blame for the mentality of the team? Of course, but in hindsight it just seems so clear that we put together a terrible team that wasn’t going to work. I still maintain Book/KD could have worked…we just botched everything after KD arrived…and yes we gave up too much for him.

[iLLmatic]

Yeah I still don’t think KD was the best player on the team the past couple years, stats be damned. Booker deferred a lot to the dude because he looked up to him.

[pickle]

I think KD is the type of player that needs a dominant personality around him whom he could respect. Without it it’s a total lost cause. In Golden State he had Draymond and Steph, and now he has Ime. Book deferred to him too much and Beal is Beal. I don’t think this team would be better today with KD in place of Royce. But if KD were 39 and on the decline and willing to just play whatever role maybe it will work. Not right now.

[pickle]

Might be a bit clickbaity. But if we take into account their contracts and believe in Grayson’s steals numbers, then this suddenly becomes very interesting.

[pickle]

Can we like, do a kickstarter campaign to raise money for Oso to take this class?

[Superbone]

Enroll Oso now.

[Superbone]

[ShelC]

I was looking up CG's FA status last week to see if we had his Bird Rights, which we do. So hopefully things work out where we can keep him and he's good playing off the bench for now. Only the Nets have space this summer but I think we can still offer more than them. The threat would be another team creating more space space and offering a starting job.