Phx-Suns.Net

Other newspapers do not share this need to shock the religious folks so I get that they did not want to publish the caricatures at the time and I'm not surprised they still express their support now. I do agree they should've done more at the time, though.

That said I really don't recall "there is a good way to stop us" bit, maybe one of the cartoonists said something like "We'd rather die than be told what to publish" but I think that's about it...

So the whole Voltaire 'defend your right to speak to the death' thing is out the window, then? Yeah, can't see that backfiring down the road at all.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/ ... -and-islam

Zeratul wrote:And it's not propaganda, France is becoming more and more racist: the extreme right party is becoming bigger by the hour and could possibly win the next presidential elections. There is a huge gap between between the arabics and non arabics right now and it does not seem much can be done about it... This news story won't help either.

Well, extremist or not, this story was written by Muslims, namely, the ones who went into Charlie Hebdo and murdered everyone. Over a few cartoons. The story is that there is an extremist side of Islam that is given a LOT of leeway by moderates in the West, for the purpose of not offending the moderate Muslims, but that in and of itself is dangerous. The increase in racism is bad, and it's important (if redundant) for us to make it clear that moderate Muslims are not the enemy, while still pointing out how bloody stupid it is to kill someone over a simple cartoon. Free speech and press should not be sacrificed to appease terrorist scum.

Zeratul wrote:I think Indy is right: religious leaders are very important for muslims because the Coran is complex and can have many different interpretations. Therefore many muslims choose to follow blindly what the Imam says...

One could say religious leaders are very important for Christians because the Bible is complex and can have many different interpretations. Therefore many Christians choose to follow blindly what the Pastor/Priest says?

Ghost wrote:I'm with Dan on this (I hope that doesn't trigger Armageddon ). Yes, I'll throw in the disclaimer that the majority of Muslims aren't blowing people up, and don't want to...but even among the "moderate" Muslims, there are polls that show a truly frightening level of acceptance for what everyone else in the world would call terrorist acts.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/09/opinions/ ... index.html
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muslims- ... 2609121662
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/ ... .xvJ4E7a94
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2014/10/1 ... terrorism/
http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-musl ... 1411755890

Nodack, you point out that in the west, we have free speech, but that you consider it extremely offensive to deliberately offend Muslims by creating those cartoons (I am paraphrasing, so my apologies if I didn't capture that correctly). Well...I wish I could say I didn't want to say this, but the subset of Islam that will murder you for drawing a cartoon DESERVES AND SHOULD BE ridiculed. Because I don't really care what the little book says or how offended someone gets by a cartoon; the offensive thing here is that a lot of people died this week because of a goddamn cartoon.

A cartoon didn't kill them. A lot of people died because some crazy pissed off terrorists intentionally killed them to make a statement. Their statement was, " If you intentionally insult our god and the people of Islam just to stick your middled finger at us you deserve to die and it will honor our god if we do kill you." Choosing to offend extremist Muslims is a choice we all are allowed to make in a free society. I also have the right to stick my hand in the mouth of a lion at the zoo if I want to or hand feed great white sharks in open water if I want. Does that mean I side with the terrorists? Hell no, it just means I think 99% of the world is crazy and I am trying to survive in this world long enough to grow old. Intentionally insulting billions of other people just because you don't agree with their religion is childish and dangerous, especially if you are expressing your insults in media for everyone to see.

The tenets of Islam that justify the actions of terrorists are not very different from the horrifying things that appear in the Bible, and while some will argue that the New Testament wipes all that out, the fact is that Christianity is still based on some pretty awful stories. But, for the most part, it truly is a small minority of Christians who act on those ideas. And the vast majority of Christians then oppose those actions. And, we can ridicule those extremists like Westboro, and not have to worry about them killing us. And they deserve to be ridiculed, and we should continue to do so, even if it offends their deeply-held belief in an outdated concept of God.

I agree that most Christians think of the Old Testament as more of a group of stories than the truth. I guess if you take it as gospel there is a lot of kill them all stuff in there as well as in the Koran. So you are saying we are more civilized because we have filtered our bible and chose to follow the parts we agree with and ignore the parts we don't? Not all Muslims take the kill them all stuff to heart, just the real pissed off ones looking for a spiritual reason for revenge.

Frankly, there wouldn't be any political cartoons about Mohammed if there weren't crazy ass terrorist whack jobs and horrific human rights violations going on in his name. We can't NOT call it crazy and ridicule it, because that's giving them exactly what they want. And we aren't talking about the lukewarm moderates, but the crazies. Offend them. Call out their backwards, antiquated, awful way of thinking for what it is.

Yes there would be cartoons without terrorists. So, you are saying if we don't agree with their religion or their beliefs we should offend them? No Nodack, I am saying we should offend the crazies, not the lukewarm moderates. How do you do that? Make more cartoons insulting Islam? That offends them all and what purpose are you hoping to achieve?

Every news outlet that refused to show the cartoons after the attacks should clean house and start over, with real journalists this time. They are complicit as far as I'm concerned.

They didn't show cartoons insulting Islam therefore they helped kill those journalists? Are you sure you are the old Andy?

But they have effectively told the terrorists "Hey, if you don't like what we're doing...this is a good way to stop us from doing it in the future." They have essentially accepted that attack and, while they cover it, are damn near endorsing the tactics of those terrorists as being valid. It's disgusting.

I don't get it. Endorsing the tactics? A cartoonist and media outlet offended the entire Muslim world consisting of billions. Some crazies from the Muslim side took it personally and killed them in retaliation because the Koran says to do just that. To those guys they were being devout Muslims sacrificing themselves for the honor of their god and their people. So, your answer to this mess is to go out of our way to insult more terrorists/Muslims even more to show them that their tactics aren't going to stop us from insulting whoever we want?

by Zeratul
And it's not propaganda, France is becoming more and more racist: the extreme right party is becoming bigger by the hour and could possibly win the next presidential elections. There is a huge gap between between the arabics and non arabics right now and it does not seem much can be done about it... This news story won't help either.

My propaganda remark is that everything is propaganda of some sort. Our news, their Iman's, our religious leaders, people on the street, commercials or whatever. It's all propaganda of some sort. Us talking here is propaganda. Everybody has their opinions and views and push it on others.

France has always had a rep for being intolerant. I think there has been a huge gap between the two religions dating back many centuries. We took turns pillaging each other many times throughout history. We just got done invading Iraq and Afghanistan. To say ties between the two religions is slightly strained would be an understatement.

Imagine if China decided that Obama was evil and hurting us poor Americans. They launch an invasion and topple our military and kill Obama. Now they want to start a new country based on Communism. They also plan on paying for their war with our oil and now our oil is the property of the state. Would any of you take offense to that? Would any of you become terrorists and fight back or just do exactly what China said? What if they tortured Americans fighting back and posted pictures of them on the internet being piled on top of each other naked with feces on them? Would that offend anybody? They round up all the prisoners bibles and then burn them. I only post this paragraph to make people think what many Muslims think about our actions. Some Muslims polled aren't as offended as we want? Maybe because they are also pissed off at us and don't trust us. Offend them more?

I'm saying that we as a society have done things that many Muslims took as evil. We have pissed them off going way back. Some of their pissed off extremists attack us in response and our response it to ratchet up the violence to teach them a lesson because that's all they understand. Then they ratchet up the retaliation like in the second attack on the world trade center on 9/11. We ratchet up the response and go into Afghanistan to root out the terrorists as if that will stop them from hating us. Then we go into Iraq for no real reason and take them out. To many Muslims they think we are there to steal their oil and persecute them. All we did in Iraq and Afghanistan was prove to many Muslims that we are evil and can't be trusted. Instead of rooting out terrorism we created 10Xs more. I am starting to think that the answer isn't killing more people. This isn't a winnable war. Some on both sides seem to be itching to make it a war.

Bow down to Islam and terrorists? No. Go out of our way to offend them? No. Invade every country with terrorists/Muslims and kill all who appose us? No. Reach out to moderate Muslims around the world to try to build a bond and set up some sort of trust? Yes. Help countries fighting extremism like ISIS if they ask? Yes. It's hard to ignore terrorism, but I think if we would treat them as an annoyance instead of putting so much importance in them. What if instead of invading Afghanistan and Iraq we just decided to secretly seek out Al Queda's camps and then just made their camps craters from the air every time we spotted one, sort of like the ISIS strategy now? Don't even announce it in the news. Rambled on too long already.

I am not a Muslim or a Christian. I am agnostic and think you all are crazy, so I am just hoping you guys don't start another religious war.

Nodack, I am on my phone and can't possibly write a decent reply with my thumbs. I understand much of what you are saying, but give me a day to write a real reply.

Ghost wrote:I'm with Dan on this (I hope that doesn't trigger Armageddon ). Yes, I'll throw in the disclaimer that the majority of Muslims aren't blowing people up, and don't want to...but even among the "moderate" Muslims, there are polls that show a truly frightening level of acceptance for what everyone else in the world would call terrorist acts.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/09/opinions/ ... index.html
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muslims- ... 2609121662
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/ ... .xvJ4E7a94
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2014/10/1 ... terrorism/
http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-musl ... 1411755890

I've read all of those already. Again, I know that most moderate Muslims do not blow people up, and there are plenty who stand up against terrorism. But the numbers are still scary. The site I'm linking to here is biased [EDIT: See next post], but they link to a number of studies from much more reputable sites. The fact is, "moderate" Islam is not quite the same as moderate anything else. There are a lot of people who think we should die, even thought they aren't going to strap on the bomb vest themselves.

[Another edit: I will restate again, I know that most moderate Muslims do not support terror, as your articles show. But look at the polls shown in the link I have below and tell me that I'm wrong here. You have a few good examples of Muslims who oppose terror. I have dozens of links showing that far too many do not oppose it.]

A cartoon didn't kill them. A lot of people died because some crazy pissed off terrorists intentionally killed them to make a statement. Their statement was, " If you intentionally insult our god and the people of Islam just to stick your middled finger at us you deserve to die and it will honor our god if we do kill you." Choosing to offend extremist Muslims is a choice we all are allowed to make in a free society. I also have the right to stick my hand in the mouth of a lion at the zoo if I want to or hand feed great white sharks in open water if I want. Does that mean I side with the terrorists? Hell no, it just means I think 99% of the world is crazy and I am trying to survive in this world long enough to grow old. Intentionally insulting billions of other people just because you don't agree with their religion is childish and dangerous, especially if you are expressing your insults in media for everyone to see.

I didn't say the CARTOON killed them. Obviously, the extremists who can't bear being offended by a cartoon were the ones responsible. In this sentence: "I also have the right to stick my hand in the mouth of a lion at the zoo if I want to or hand feed great white sharks in open water if I want" you are doing what we call "blaming the victim." Also, you are making a ridiculous comparison, and saying that people in a free society should bow down and kiss the boots of the extremists just so they don't get upset. Fuck that. I'm sorry, you are completely wrong on this, and I think your point of view is dangerous if we actually value free speech.

I agree that most Christians think of the Old Testament as more of a group of stories than the truth. I guess if you take it as gospel there is a lot of kill them all stuff in there as well as in the Koran. So you are saying we are more civilized because we have filtered our bible and chose to follow the parts we agree with and ignore the parts we don't? Not all Muslims take the kill them all stuff to heart, just the real pissed off ones looking for a spiritual reason for revenge.

Regarding the bolded part, yes, I am exactly saying that. Even better would be if we stopped basing our morals on ancient dogma and behaved like actual civilized, modern people. That goes for Christians who won't make a cake for gay men as well as it does for Muslims who want to blow up gay men. OF COURSE not all Muslims take the genocide to heart, as I have repeatedly said in this thread. In fact, I'm sick of saying it. But reality is that we would be better off without religion, because aside from food drives, it mostly leads to bad things.

Yes there would be cartoons without terrorists. So, you are saying if we don't agree with their religion or their beliefs we should offend them? No Nodack, I am saying we should offend the crazies, not the lukewarm moderates. How do you do that? Make more cartoons insulting Islam? That offends them all and what purpose are you hoping to achieve?

Cartoons of what? Muslims praying quietly and not killing people? What cartoons would there be? Do you think there would be cartoons of Catholic priests raping boys if Catholic priests didn't have a history of raping boys? Of course there wouldn't. Religions are only ridiculed when they prove to be faulty and dangerous. And extreme Islam (and, since I brought it up, Catholicism and its long history of silence on that subject) are dangerous.

All I wanted was for the news outlets to show the cartoons that were enough to trigger the murder of those people. Show exactly how minor the "offense" was. So many of those so-called journalists were too cowardly to show what caused the terrorists to kill those people. Don't have to make more, if you don't want to. If you have a point to make that means a cartoon that will offend someone, then make it. Free speech is more valuable than appeasement.

They didn't show cartoons insulting Islam therefore they helped kill those journalists? Are you sure you are the old Andy?

I didn't say that; please view my earlier reply to Indy on that matter.

I don't get it. Endorsing the tactics? A cartoonist and media outlet offended the entire Muslim world consisting of billions. Some crazies from the Muslim side took it personally and killed them in retaliation because the Koran says to do just that. To those guys they were being devout Muslims sacrificing themselves for the honor of their god and their people. So, your answer to this mess is to go out of our way to insult more terrorists/Muslims even more to show them that their tactics aren't going to stop us from insulting whoever we want?

Accepting the tactics, and appeasing by bowing down to them. Not endorsing. Again, refer to my previous post. But let me deconstruct what you just said in more detail. This post is about to get longer.

A cartoonist and media outlet offended the entire Muslim world consisting of billions. Some crazies from the Muslim side took it personally and killed them in retaliation because the Koran says to do just that.

If the Koran says to do it, they aren't "crazy," just believers. And if believing in that means you kill over a cartoon, then your belief is royally fucked up and should not be defended. Moderate Muslims do not kill, and would oppose this. Why are you defending it, because they believe? That's messed up.

To those guys they were being devout Muslims sacrificing themselves for the honor of their god and their people.

Well, good for them. They are still murderers, scum, and terrorists. If what they get from their religion is that they should kill cartoonists because they get a little butt-hurt, then they are wrong and their particular brand of Islam is poisonous. Again, I do not understand how you can take a fence sitting point of view on this. They are completely, without a shadow of a doubt, the guilty party here...not the cartoonists.

So, your answer to this mess is to go out of our way to insult more terrorists/Muslims even more to show them that their tactics aren't going to stop us from insulting whoever we want?

My answer is to show the cartoons that triggered this bloodbath. Show exactly how benign, how lame, how non-murdering they were. And through that, what response it caused. The response was, again, without any debate, WAY off the charts. Cartoons do not equal murder in any sort of rational society. None, ever. We cannot, in any way, accept the idea that they do. Several things that you have said go back to the victim blaming point I brought up earlier...

If that offends some Muslims, sorry. Hopefully, a few will see the cause and effect, being cartoon and murder, and back away. The ones who don't...well, be offended. Anyone who is more offended by seeing a cartoon of Mohammed than by seeing someone killed for drawing a cartoon of Mohammed is a really, really scary person.

I am not a Muslim or a Christian. I am agnostic and think you all are crazy, so I am just hoping you guys don't start another religious war.

I'll do you one better...I'm an atheist, and I think you are talking like Neville Chamberlain reincarnated.

The link I promised above...again, the site this is on is quite biased, but it contains a lot of links to sites that are pretty mainstream. So it's a good collection of links.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... -polls.htm

Ghost, I know I sound like I am defending the terrorists, but I am not. I think there are always two sides to every disagreement and I don't think there are any Muslims here to defend their religion or people, so I took it upon myself to play devils advocate for them.

I think the general opinion of most Americans when it comes to Muslims is that they are all terrorists deep down. I don't think many Americans try to understand them. I believe all people are roughly the same. Males 18-22 are jacked up on testosterone and impressionable. I picture young males in the Mideast being amped up by their spiritual leaders in some of the more militant sects enough to want to kill Christians as revenge for all the bad things they perceive the West/Christianity has done to their people over the years. If I was a Muslim living in the Mideast I think I would be a little angry at the US too. Would I want to go to a crowded mall and start shooting people? No, but I can see why some of them would be angry. I don't think many Americans/Christians think Muslims have any reason to be angry at the West. I think they have their blinders on.

I can also see why the West would be angry as well. We don't like it when our people are gunned down in cold blood. You behead one of our people and it's like you are threatening to behead all of us. You kill 3000 of us in an attack in NY and we get angry and want revenge. Our young males 18-22 sign up for the military to get some payback while some young Muslim extremists 18-22 sign up to get some payback.

The terrorists have been brutal. So have we. Remember the soldier that left his barracks at night and went into the local village in Afghanistan and murdered a bunch of families, women and children? He even poured flammable material on them and lit them on fire before returning to his barracks where he was arrested.We urinated on dead corpses we killed and posted them on You Tube. The list goes on and it doesn't represent the vast majority of our military, but things like that get press there like the terrorist attacks get here.

My point is that we all have been savage at times like everybody in every war for thousands of years has been. The terrorists are too far gone to save now, but there are billions of Muslims out there and we have serious trust issues with them. It goes both ways.

I think their religion and way of life is definitely not for me. Being offended to the point of murder because somebody made a cartoon depicting your god is beyond stupid and scary. Invoking the death penalty for anybody that doesn't convert to Islam is beyond stupid and scary. Punishing somebody for not believing in your god is stupid and scary. I am a non believer and I know many would wish me death for that. Even Christians frown on me. Good for them. I think 99% of the planet is brainwashed into believing in man made gods that don't exist and they are all kind of whacked out in the head because of it. I have to live with all these brainwashed people trying to kill each other because their man made invisible gods told them to and it's frustrating.

I am not siding with the terrorists, I am just trying to understand their point of view and make other people aware or it. I would hope we could all find a way to coexist without all the violence, but then again we are human and us humans have been killing each other for quite some time.

Nodack wrote:Ghost, I know I sound like I am defending the terrorists, but I am not. I think there are always two sides to every disagreement and I don't think there are any Muslims here to defend their religion or people, so I took it upon myself to play devils advocate for them.

I do not, for one second, think you are siding with the terrorists, Nodack. Yes, I have said "appeasement" a few times and I'm not going to back away from that, but dude, I know you are not supporting what happened. Please, please, do not think that is what I was saying. Sometimes, the internet sucks for having a conversation.

Back to your post, yes, there have certainly been several events where Americans, including our soldiers, have committed some incredibly terrible acts. And those all need to be condemned. Our atrocities are no better than their atrocities.

You say that you are playing Devils Advocate for the Muslims, but I am not attacking Islam or Muslims (I have stated this in almost every single post I've made in this thread, I believe, and I do it because I know things will be taken out of context if I don't, but they still are taken out of context). I am saying that everyone should, without flinching, denounce the terrorists. Show what they did (murder people) and why the did it (a cartoon). I realize that showing the cartoon will offend some people, but I do not care. I'm sorry, but I don't. I am far more upset about the people who were murdered. I think you are too, and any rational minded person, including Muslims, who sees the comparison will agree that murder is worse than a comic. And that is why showing the cartoon is important. What was it that drove the Koran-believing terrorists to kill those people? Let's see the cartoon. Anyone who is more upset at seeing the catalyst for those deaths than they are knowing people died...again, very, very scary.

Anyway, I think we don't actually disagree as much as we may sound like we do. It's the folly of the internet.

Many interesting things said, one thing I do not agree with though: the cartoonists did not make their controversial anti-Mahomet cartoons just to show they're willing to do crazy stuff to prove a point. That's part of the thing, sure, but mainly they published the cartoons because they thought they were funny (and IMHO some of them where).

The fact that the drawings offended religious fanatics only made it sweeter in the eye of Charlie Hebdo's writers but it was not really their main goal : they wanted to make bad taste jokes about religion, this time muslim next time christian, next whatever...

In retrospect, I think their biggest mistake was not publishing their stuff but failing to hide after publishing it. They should've taken the threat more seriously and hide their HQ somewhere in the countryside or something

Zeratul wrote:The fact that the drawings offended religious fanatics only made it sweeter in the eye of Charlie Hebdo's writers but it was not really their main goal : they wanted to make bad taste jokes about religion, this time muslim next time christian, next whatever...

In retrospect, I think their biggest mistake was not publishing their stuff but failing to hide after publishing it. They should've taken the threat more seriously and hide their HQ somewhere in the countryside or something

No. They should not have had to worry about being killed for making a cartoon. THEIR mistake? Again, we come back to victim blaming.

They shouldn't be killed for making a cartoon, but they were. We think drawing a picture of their God is no big deal. It written in their Koran that anybody that does should be killed. We didn't think they would take it seriously enough to actually kill somebody. We were wrong.

There has always been a rivaly/war going on between Christians and Muslims dating back a long time. The two religions don't like each other worse than Democrats and Republicans. There is zero trust between the two religions and almost zero understanding of each other. When we invaded Iraq it wasn't the US deposing of a brutal dictator, it was the Christians coming to attack Muslims on Muslim lands and steal their oil.

Yes it is the extremist element doing all the damage, but I think our actions have an effect on how many extremists are created. We don't think there has been enough outrage by moderate Muslims condemning the atrocities of the extremists. I think some have condemned it, but some are probably not that upset.

I get a little bored talking about blame. I think it's a waste of time here and in politics. The blame game solves nothing. What do we do as a society to stop this war between the two religions or is it preset and unchangeable? Is it all on Muslims to reign in their rogue elements or do we play a part in it? What is the goal of the US in the Mideast? We certainly have our hands in a lot of cookie jars. Are we just protecting the flow of oil?

Unlike most politicians, journalists, lawyers and other members of our ruling classes, this fearless magazine dared to mock Islam in the way the Left routinely mocks Christianity.

The Obama administration three years ago even attacked Charlie Hebdo for publishing the naked Mohammed cartoon, saying it was “deeply offensive”.

President Barack Obama even told the United Nations “the future must not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam” and damned a YouTube clip “Innocence of Muslims” which did just that. The filmmaker was thrown in jail.

I see, so it's all the left and Obama's fault because they hate America, Christians and love and protect all Muslims.

I thought the film maker was a Christian from Egypt that made the film to intentionally insult Muslims and was wanted on all kinds of charges unrelated to the film. This makes it sound like Obama threw him in jail because he slandered Islam.

Sounds to me like Obama and I share the same viewpoint when it comes to the two religions. He was raised around both religions and has family from both sides. He gets it. No wonder I voted for him.

Nodack wrote:They shouldn't be killed for making a cartoon, but they were. We think drawing a picture of their God is no big deal. It written in their Koran that anybody that does should be killed. We didn't think they would take it seriously enough to actually kill somebody. We were wrong.

...

I get a little bored talking about blame. I think it's a waste of time here and in politics. The blame game solves nothing. What do we do as a society to stop this war between the two religions or is it preset and unchangeable? Is it all on Muslims to reign in their rogue elements or do we play a part in it? What is the goal of the US in the Mideast? We certainly have our hands in a lot of cookie jars. Are we just protecting the flow of oil?

If the Koran says that cartoonists should be murdered, and that piece of dogma has not been thrown out the way Hebrew laws about not eating pork have been thrown out, then the Koran is wrong. And it is not enough to say that people are entitled to believe what they want when they will act on those beliefs, and murder cartoonists.

I do not accept a "live and let live" approach to social inequity in America, trusting things to just work themselves out over time. So I damn well will not accept that approach when we look overseas at a subculture that thinks being offended justifies murder.

As to how to solve the problem...honestly, I am worried that it can't be fixed. There are far too many Muslim nations that openly, or at least not discreetly, support terrorism. They have the guns and the power, and they are not going to give it up by allowing their nations to evolve. By keeping their lower class poor, they also create a steady supply of bodies that the terrorists can throw at us. And everything we do to combat them will be spun as us being bloodthirsty capitalists.

We tried in Afghanistan, and mostly failed. We tried in Iraq (a largely secular Iraq), and failed even more miserably. The Arab Spring came and went, and that was the best chance for the region to improve. It left several nations in complete chaos, and we are still in the "Arab Winter," which has seen hundreds of thousands of deaths, numerous civil wars, and no significant improvement in anything.

There is no solution today, and I strongly doubt there will be in our lifetime.

The author of the article pretty much bashes the powers-that-be in every nation and press org in the world, but yes, let's reduce it down to what he says about Obama. Remove that passage from the larger piece - it changes nothing.

Nodack wrote:I thought the film maker was a Christian from Egypt that made the film to intentionally insult Muslims

. . . . so? BFD. Lots of movies insult lots of cultural groups. There's only one cultural group of many that can be predicted to react violently. Unless I missed the Amish riots over "Witness" and "Kingpin."

Free speech doesn't mean you're free from being offended.

Ghost wrote: There is no solution today, and I strongly doubt there will be in our lifetime.

Total energy independence and travel restrictions, maybe, but I'm afraid you're right.

Maybe one day they will learn to love their children more than jihad.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph ... ch/#207703

Indy, I never responded to which of dad's points it was I was siding with. It's that one. Offending people should not be a crime, and those who think it should be deserve to be offended.

My point about the youtube clip was that I don't think he was thrown in jail for making the movie even though the author tries to make it sound like that was what happened. I put in the part about him being a Christian felon intentionally trying to stir up violence as bonus info. According to the right there supposedly never was a movie insulting Islam made anyway. It was all a made up scam by Obama and the lefties to cover Obama murdering our embassy staff. There certainly were never any protests on 9/11 happening anywhere in the world over the non existing YouTube movie. I remember watching every News outlet including FOX News reporting the protests all over the Mideast over the movie that day, but as soon as we found out about the attack in Libya the story changed on FOX. Now it was a terrorist attack that Obama should have stopped and that there were never any protests anywhere at any US embassy around the world that day and there never was a movie insulting Muslims and even if there were it was a certain that they weren't protesting in Libya.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims
What was perceived as denigrating of the Islamic prophet Muhammad caused demonstrations and violent protests against the video to break out on September 11 in Egypt and spread to other Arab and Muslim nations and to some western countries. The protests have led to hundreds of injuries and over 50 deaths.[8][9][10][11] Fatwas have been issued against the video's participants and a Pakistani minister has offered a bounty for the killing of Nakoula, the producer.[12][13][14][15] The film has sparked debates about freedom of speech and Internet censorship.[16]

Ghost wrote:Indy, I never responded to which of dad's points it was I was siding with. It's that one. Offending people should not be a crime, and those who think it should be deserve to be offended.

This is why I don't post from my phone. DAN'S points. Not dad.

Nodack wrote:My point about the youtube clip was that I don't think he was thrown in jail for making the movie even though the author tries to make it sound like that was what happened. I put in the part about him being a Christian felon intentionally trying to stir up violence as bonus info. According to the right there supposedly never was a movie insulting Islam made anyway. It was all a made up scam by Obama and the lefties to cover Obama murdering our embassy staff. There certainly were never any protests on 9/11 happening anywhere in the world over the non existing YouTube movie. I remember watching every News outlet including FOX News reporting the protests all over the Mideast over the movie that day, but as soon as we found out about the attack in Libya the story changed on FOX. Now it was a terrorist attack that Obama should have stopped and that there were never any protests anywhere at any US embassy around the world that day and there never was a movie insulting Muslims and even if there were it was a certain that they weren't protesting in Libya.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims
What was perceived as denigrating of the Islamic prophet Muhammad caused demonstrations and violent protests against the video to break out on September 11 in Egypt and spread to other Arab and Muslim nations and to some western countries. The protests have led to hundreds of injuries and over 50 deaths.[8][9][10][11] Fatwas have been issued against the video's participants and a Pakistani minister has offered a bounty for the killing of Nakoula, the producer.[12][13][14][15] The film has sparked debates about freedom of speech and Internet censorship.[16]

. . . again, so?

The movie "Dogma" portrayed the Christian God as a skeeball-loving Alanis Morisette and skewered the Catholic church. Were there Christian riots over it? Nope.

If you're rioting over a portrayal of your divine being in a youtube video, that's an indictment of your belief system and maturity. Again, only one cultural group can be expected to react violently to criticism and satire, and your link proves that!