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Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:50 am
by Indy
Ring_Wanted wrote:There are many examples of starting caliber players who have been used off the bench. Some are/were even better than the starter. Some are/were better players than Markieff Morris. And being a 6th man doesn't mean he can't finish games (Taj Gibson, for instance).
I am surprised that you are so vehement about this but regardless, everybody has their vision on what this team needs or could use. On the other hand, I find your Hornacek analogy way off the mark.
Back to Kieff, I have been one of his biggest 'defenders', and his 15ppg and go to moves are undeniably great, but the team needs more toughness on D/R and less one on one on offense. If he improves there, I'd be satisfied and wouldn't think about putting him back in the 6th man role.
Obviously, the PF I am talking about is not a Brandon Bass, Trevor Booker or the likes. It has to be a player with pedigree so the case to bench Kieff is actually defensible. A former allstar like West or Lee, for instance. We know they are not at the top of their game anymore, but they know how to set a screen, cut to the basket and make a midrange shot too.
With such move I believe the Suns would achieve a better half court two man game with Dragic/Bledsoe in pick and roll/pop situations. Moreover, a verteran presence could work wonders for this inexperienced and often chaotic group. This way you are also getting a stronger bench while allowing Markieff and Marcus play together more time. Add a garbage guy like Wright at C, a pass first PG like Ennis and basically whatever at SG and you have a terrific second unit.
I wasn't saying it wouldn't be better for the team. I agree that we definitely need more D+R from our 4 spot. Or even just one or the other for a start... I am all for your proposal. I just don't see it happening.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:01 am
by carey
Mori Chu wrote:Markieff Morris is a starting NBA power forward, period. If you think you can just trade pieces for some other PF and slide Kieff to the bench, you're crazy. He's having his best year of his career and has more than proven himself worthy as a starter. Shifting him to the bench like that would not be tolerated. It'd be like if we hired some new coach and tried to shift Hornacek to be the assistant; wouldn't fly.
If you don't want Markieff as our starting PF, you have to ship him out. You can't ask him to become some kind of monster 6th man any more. That ship has sailed.
Disagree. He is under contract for 5 years. We can do whatever we want if it improves the team. I proposed Lee on RealGM last week and was slammed. Mostly due to his age & salary though. I think his game, such that it is now, is a good fit. He hasn't looked great since his injury.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:06 am
by Mori Chu
David Lee isn't any better than Markieff; arguably he's much worse. I'm not sure in what way that would be an upgrade at all.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:57 am
by carey
Mori Chu wrote:David Lee isn't any better than Markieff; arguably he's much worse. I'm not sure in what way that would be an upgrade at all.
He was a legit 10 rebound a night guy. I have not watched him since his injury much but aren't we talking about fundamentally different games? Lee is an around the basket guy.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:06 am
by Ring_Wanted
carey wrote:Disagree. He is under contract for 5 years. We can do whatever we want if it improves the team. I proposed Lee on RealGM last week and was slammed. Mostly due to his age & salary though. I think his game, such that it is now, is a good fit. He hasn't looked great since his injury.
RealGM is too hung up on facial trade value and that proverbial consolidation move for a (super)star. A proposal for David Lee, West, Nene, Al Jefferson etc has little chance of being welcomed over there, like if they took it the Suns would suffer greatly opportunity cost wise, but sometimes there is more into it than salary, age and crude stats.
And even if you wanted to narrow it to money and age, I believe either West or Lee would actually represent an interesting alley. Neither has money committed beyond next year (especially handy if some of the outgoing players were signed to longer deals), both are contracts big enough to eventually sustain a further megadeal (or just a 'rollback', trading for another 2 year guy) and both would provide a number of things this roster sorely lacks, including intangibles.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:09 am
by Ring_Wanted
carey wrote:Mori Chu wrote:David Lee isn't any better than Markieff; arguably he's much worse. I'm not sure in what way that would be an upgrade at all.
He was a legit 10 rebound a night guy. I have not watched him since his injury much but aren't we talking about fundamentally different games? Lee is an around the basket guy.
He is a different animal. Has lost one step, but still watch him set a screen and roll to the basket and tell me Dragic wouldn't benefit greatly from having him around. In a sense, Dragic-Lee would be Nash-Amare lite.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:37 am
by ShelC
In a sense, Dragic-Lee would be Nash-Amare lite.
I think Lee is a bit past his prime. He's a fundamentally sound guy, extremely high basketball IQ and a great teammate. He's actually a really good 15-17 ft pop guy and can roll and finish with either hand equally. But if we complain about defense, Lee will drive us crazy. He's honestly one of the worst defenders and softest bigs around. He can still be a double-double guy but you need a defensive, athletic 5 next to him to cover off (Len/Wright?).
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:36 pm
by Ring_Wanted
Bad defender, supposedly more fundamentals, less reliance on athleticism, allegedly better rebounder. I can live with it, if that way you are maximizing Dragic's game (but then again, I desperately want to keep Dragic).
And very good point on the complimentary pieces, already in place. Poor Amare never really had that until RoLo circa 2010.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:38 pm
by ShelC
Definitely better rebounder. He's a good run jump athlete but isn't overly explosive.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:43 pm
by Mori Chu
If you want Lee, let's just sign him as an FA cheap after this year. He will be available and his value will be down.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:44 pm
by Mori Chu
The Warriors aren't going to take back any long term money to trade Lee. They are up against the L tax and need to try to keep Draymond Green. They need to clear out Lee's money to do that.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:50 pm
by ShelC
Lee's probably going to end up back in NY.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:18 pm
by carey
Mori Chu wrote:If you want Lee, let's just sign him as an FA cheap after this year. He will be available and his value will be down.
After next year? I believe he has one more season at $16M.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:19 pm
by INFORMER
Mori Chu wrote:Markieff Morris is a starting NBA power forward, period. If you think you can just trade pieces for some other PF and slide Kieff to the bench, you're crazy. He's having his best year of his career
Actually his productivity rate is slightly down from last year in both rebounding and scoring.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:26 pm
by INFORMER
SDC wrote:INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.
And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.
this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef
Fool's gold.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:59 pm
by Superbone
SDC wrote:INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.
And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.
this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef
It's creepy. It's like you two guys share a common mind other than that.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:13 pm
by INFORMER
Superbone wrote:SDC wrote:INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.
And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.
this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef
It's creepy. It's like you two guys share a common mind other than that.
What?!
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:17 pm
by Superbone
INFORMER wrote:Superbone wrote:SDC wrote:INFORMER wrote:Come on Cap. You're putting a little too much stock in your new math model.
And what you're talking about is taking Markieff off the team and not adding anyone else.
this is one of the few times i STRONGLY disagree with inf on anything. #keepkeef
It's creepy. It's like you two guys share a common mind other than that.
What?!
Perfect reaction, INF. You made my day. I'm still laughing.
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:18 am
by Ring_Wanted
https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/565277757509488642
Re: If Amare bolts, Mavs are frontrunners for his services
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:09 am
by SDC
Ring_Wanted wrote:https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/565277757509488642
why would he waste his time here when the suns are on their way out of the playoffs?