Phx-Suns.Net

Vladimir_Taltos wrote:I believe Dragic and Booker would have been a nice pair to build on...sad.

VT

Too much age difference. Dragic is too old for this rebuild.

We talked about this in a thread way back but some of us thought Dragic was the perfect older player to run the team while we rebuilt. He was just much better at getting other players involved than anyone we have now. It was less about making a championship run and more about being fun to watch while we worked on improving the next generation of talent.

This was all before his big paycheck though. He isn't worth that much money to our team. Maybe he would have taken less if we locked him up early and didn't piss him off but who knows.

EDC wrote:We talked about this in a thread way back but some of us thought Dragic was the perfect older player to run the team while we rebuilt. He was just much better at getting other players involved than anyone we have now. It was less about making a championship run and more about being fun to watch while we worked on improving the next generation of talent.

This was all before his big paycheck though. He isn't worth that much money to our team.

Bingo.

The thing that will hurt this franchise developing in the future is that they don't even play hard and it's creating bad habits for the young guys. But we are P-H-X so it's all good. They should change the mascot to an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

It was a little annoying having our announcers gush over how great IT is and how great a season he is having. It was almost like he was rubbing it in. Knight was the only starter to reach double digits in points.

Lotto pick here we come.

EDC wrote:I think the one big mistake was double downing on guards that can't pass. The Knight acquisition has looked pretty awful so far. The rest of the team isn't built so badly.

Yup. You can't grab all these supposed "PGs" who don't try to run an offense or distribute the ball. It's a rotten core of a team and will never lead you anywhere.

In general we should be targeting guys who share the ball and look to pass as much as they look to shoot. Guys who wave off their teammates and try to go 1-on-5 should be summarily excised from the team. When a guy like PJ Tucker does that, I rage at him, too.

INFORMER wrote:Liking Dragic here doesn't presume that he's destined for greatness elsewhere. Me personally, I didn't complain one bit when Dragic got traded; at that point the Suns didn't have a choice. It was just ridiculous the Suns put themselves in that position to create such a mess.

And the Suns present situation as well as past transactions goes far beyond Dragic, so I'm not sure why you want to whittle it down to just that sticking point. I get that you weren't a Dragic guy,but it doesn't change the fact that he was really good while he was here, so I'm not sure there is any "I told you so card" you can play there.

when everyone around here was hailing Dragic as "3rd Team All-NBA Goran Dragic!"

Was that an exaggeration? Did it not count? The management you seem to love hailed Brandon Knight as an "almost All-Star." You really find that more credible?

Most of what I've seen of your criticisms haven't involved many useful alternatives

So is your criticism that I don't offer any alternatives (because that's absurd) or that you don't find my alternatives useful? If it is the latter, I'm sorry, but you are entitled to your own opinion. And someone who is in McDonough's corner certainly wouldn't like my "alternatives."

out of context zach lowe quote on ryan mcdonough, march 2015:

Second-guess McDonough at your peril. He’s a whip-smart basketball guy, he loves Knight, and he has a plan. I can’t wait to see what it is.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/no-li ... he-future/

Zach Lowe's mancrush on Markieff Morris really made me temper how much credence I put in his conclusions. He's terrific student of the game, probably the best in the media, but he can get lost in the data and arrive at some wonky prognostications and evaluations.

INFORMER wrote:Zach Lowe's mancrush on Markieff Morris really made me temper how much credence I put in his conclusions. He's terrific student of the game, probably the best in the media, but he can get lost in the data and arrive at some wonky prognostications and evaluations.

hmmm.. i also like markieff.

Plus guys like Zach Lowe and Adrian Woj write good stuff about McD because McD usually leaks info to them first before they leak info to anyone else. Woj was the first to find out about how the LMA meeting went down and because of that he wrote all this amazing stuff about the Suns at the time.

These guys stories and articles are heavily influenced by what the GMs do for them. McD knows how to communicate and interact with the media guys very well. A guy like Hinkie on the other hand does not and that's the main reason why media hates on him so much.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Defense? Anyone?

That's the thing. This team just doesn't bother guarding anyone. Every team we play shoots season-high percentages. They should. It's just like practice with nobody guarding you. It seem like the Suns wait until half way through the third quarter to start playing any D. Like they're waiting until they're getting embarrassed.

EDC wrote:The problem is that NBA players can just decide to not give a shit and bring down a team from the inside. It was one thing to assume Kieff would be upset. He ignored all attempts to reach out to him over the summer. I just don't think anyone really believed he would throw in the towel like he has.

Literally!

OE32 wrote:

INFORMER wrote:

Vladimir_Taltos wrote:Well, since we're taking the low road (think 76ers,)

You say that like the Suns are choosing to suck; they're not. This is just an awful team made possible by horrendous roster building.

I have no desire to chase you away with criticism, but if you were GM, we'd still be running Dragic-Frye pick-and-rolls every night. Don't know how that gets us any closer to a championship...

Last night's game was awful. Avery Bradley looked better than Brandon Knight. Mirza was our best player. Tyson played particularly bad, and none of our young players showed much - though I did like what I saw out of Archie. He's more patient, understands the offense better, and I was really impressed with his ability to chase guards around screens. My bet is he'll stick around through the deadline.

I'm really not quite sure how you can even defend this roster construction OE.

To be clear, I wasn't really trying to criticize INF. We disagree about Dragic. I believe my told you so is not completely out of line. But it's not a big deal; INF is one of the smartest fans I've read, which is why disagreement is interesting. My point about alternatives was qualified. But I didn't think it made sense to objecting to Bledsoe's signing or IT's signing, given that their contracts are valuable. Building a roster to compete around Dragic I thought was the clearest path to mediocrity in the long-run. I'm still glad we traveled this path instead of that one.

You may have been right that we could have rebuilt while Dragic was here. Maybe that was the smart play. I tend to think we got great value for him. My point with the "All-NBA Third Team" remark was that, after that great season, I thought it was pretty clear he was never going to play that well again. So, by the summer, in my mind at least, he was not an All-NBA player. It just wasn't going to happen again.

We did not get great value for IT, and we gave up quite a bit for Knight. I can see the thinking with Knight, but no, things aren't going that well. The Lakers pick has increased in value since we traded it, and Knight's has, if anything, declined. But he's young, under a long-term contract, and is one of the better outside shooters in the league - a valuable trait in a league relying ever-more on three point shooting.

This team is simply not much fun to watch. We have a lot of valuable assets, but there is such a disparity between that value and the play we see on the court. I'm still in the McDonough camp, primarily because I believe that the primary object of a rebuild is to gain and build upon valuable, long-term assets. McDonough's moves - while not all laudable - have at least been consistent with that plan (with the exception of the Brandan Wright trade). That is reason enough for me to remain in his corner. It requires patience, and fans are least of all patient, myself included.

Im still in the McDonough camp only because of how inept Blanks was. Not because McDonough has done so many great things.

Well, at least it can be worse.

OE32 wrote:But he's young, under a long-term contract, and is one of the better outside shooters in the league - a valuable trait in a league relying ever-more on three point shooting.

Let's be clear. He is streaky. And when he is on, he is on. But so was Gerald Green. And you don't pay Gerald Green 70 million dollars and start him. We are paying the 84th best 3pt shooter $60M for 4 more years after this one. And considering he doesn't seem to be a very good passer, is only an average ball handler, and is an atrocious defender, doesn't make that a positive in my book. But you are right that he is young, and the league relies on more 3pt shooting--he just isn't one of the better ones (unless you are counting an entire 3rd of the league in the "better" group).

Yeah, I'm not sure how you can classify Brandon Knight as one of the better outside shooters in the league. I think Ryan is holding a member of OE's family hostage.

INFORMER wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure how you can classify Brandon Knight as one of the better outside shooters in the league. I think Ryan is holding a member of OE's family hostage.

brandon knight should be used the way chicago used craig hodges, john paxson and steve kerr.

For Brandon Knight to really help this team, he'd have to slavishly devote himself to practicing his 3-point shooting and become a catch-and-shoot monster. But that is absolutely not going to happen.