Suns News: Week 2 11/2-11/8

[Danimal]

Is everyone pretty much in the boat for now that there'd be much more enthusiasm if we started TJ and gave the young guys with actually upside some court time ? How much more leash do you think PJ and Weems have?

[Mori Chu]

Is everyone pretty much in the boat for now that there'd be much more enthusiasm if we started TJ and gave the young guys with actually upside some court time ? How much more leash do you think PJ and Weems have?

I think most of us want them to play. Hornacek is probably not going to stop playing vets unless we start really sucking and have no hope of making the playoffs, which will probably take a while.

[Shabazz]

Is everyone pretty much in the boat for now that there'd be much more enthusiasm if we started TJ and gave the young guys with actually upside some court time ? How much more leash do you think PJ and Weems have?

I think most of us want them to play. Hornacek is probably not going to stop playing vets unless we start really sucking and have no hope of making the playoffs, which will probably take a while.

I just don't get it. Our offense has been terrible and PJ and Weems have been atrocious on that end. Does Hornacek not see that? We've got two guys on the bench who may be able to help. I just don't get it.

PJ is such a zero on offense. 5 points in 34 minutes. Gross.

[Ring_Wanted]

If Tucker was Tony Allen it could be somewhat defensible to play him as much as Hornacek does, but he has regressed on both sides and is out of shape. TJ at least moves without the ball and is a threat to score when he gets it.

The coach needs to wake up and realize that the vets (PJ, Weems, Teletovic) are not helping him.

[OE32]

I get why Hornacek's being the way he is, though I don't like it. The organization wants to win now - and not just to sell tickets, but to maximize the value of the roster and attract FAs. This sucks for fans who want to see TJ and Alex and, to a lesser extent, Archie and Devin, as they are all offensively superior to the guys ahead of them in the rotation. It also sucks for those players, who must know that they would be seeing more time on other rosters. But I get it.

I was willing to put up with this last season, too, until it became apparent that we were not going to win a lot of games. Then I lost interest. I can watch young guys develop, and I can watch a good team. What I cannot watch is a bad veteran team. As I see it, there's only one way forward for Hornacek and this roster: win. Much is riding on their ability to win. Otherwise, we're looking at reverting back to a focus on youth - which, given that we have traded away a whole lot of future assets for players who should be able to help us win now, would be a big step in the wrong direction.

[Cap]

A big step in the direction opposite to our present course, but that doesn't necessarily mean in the wrong direction. Maybe we've been going in the wrong direction and need to change course in order to stop making things worse.

[Ring_Wanted]

The thing is these vets are not helping in getting wins. Weems turns the ball, Teletovic just chucks, and PJ is too unproductive. Meanwhile, the team desperately needs 3pt shooting, efficiency and lowering TOs (Booker, Warren, Leuer) to mitigate the flaws of Knight, Bledsoe and Kieff.

I was willing to put up with this last season, too, until it became apparent that we were not going to win a lot of games. Then I lost interest. I can watch young guys develop, and I can watch a good team. What I cannot watch is a bad veteran team.

Exactly the same here.

[Nodack]

Having trouble locating the Thunder game day thread for some reason. I would make it myself but, I am out of practice and wouldn't want to jinx our big winning streak....

[Superbone]

Having trouble locating the Thunder game day thread for some reason. I would make it myself but, I am out of practice and wouldn't want to jinx our big winning streak....

Smart aleck.

[Mori Chu]

Having trouble locating the Thunder game day thread for some reason. I would make it myself but, I am out of practice and wouldn't want to jinx our big winning streak....

Only one man can make a Game Day thread here. Paging Superbone!

[Superbone]

Having trouble locating the Thunder game day thread for some reason. I would make it myself but, I am out of practice and wouldn't want to jinx our big winning streak....

Only one man can make a Game Day thread here. Paging Superbone!

[ Image ]

Man, that was effective!

[Mori Chu]

It was an emergency, so I had to use the bat(sketball) signal.

[Superbone]

It was good to see and hear D'Antoni at the Steve Nash ROH ceremony. I'm starting to think it might not be a bad idea to bring him back. I'd at least like to see what would happen if this team played like a team.

Either that or go the other direction with Thibs. Somebody's got to get these guys playing as a team. My patience is wearing thin.

[Ring_Wanted]

Heh. Mike D back has crossed my mind too. I didn't brought it up because it seems he has been repudiated on here. You know, no defense, never plays bench, doesn't like rookies, etc. Anyway, league wide there are not many rosters with personnel less suited for his style.

[ShelC]

I wouldn't bring back D'Antoni and I don't think these guys fit his style of play. Gentry was the guy and he was railroaded out of town by the "braintrust".

It's funny tho reading these posts. Hornacek wasn't a terrible coach 2 years ago when those players fit his system. Or maybe, when Dragic was here running and handling the offense and making decisions. Now all of a sudden Hornacek can't coach? We sometimes forget, or want to think, a coach should be able to coach all kinds of players and any kind of roster and find success. D'Antoni's only success after Phoenix came for a brief stretch during Linsanity when he had a PG playing his style and the pieces that fit around it. D'Antoni couldn't coach another style built around superstars (Melo, Kobe) and it became apparent he never put any time coaching defense.

I think robot (not trying to just call him out btw) posted about getting rid of Hornacek and how he's responsible for the lockerroom issues and can't take charge and handle then and I asked myself, "what lockerroom issues?" We don't have any, except for maybe the awkwardness of the Markieff situation, which is out of his control.

We're barely two weeks into the season, have pretty much a new roster and new backcourt figuring things out. I think there's a lot of overreacting going on. When we win and the backcourt plays well, no one wants Knight or Bledsoe gone. When those guys are off, we need to trade both and can't win with either. Give it time. I'm not saying we're a championship caliber team or have that kind of roster, but you can't make a determination after 6-7 games.

[JCSunsfan]

I sleepy soundly at night knowing one day a person like Marcus will eventually piss off the wrong people

[Robot]

In response to Shel above - I actually outlined my feelings on this situation pretty clearly in the Detroit thread [ I think it was there ] . As far as 'locker room issues'...

it's not about fighting - it's about the lack of fight

Hornacek has done absolutely zero like zero , I mean, zero like nothing - nothing what-so-ever like the end , ultimate void nada, none -- to foster camraderie , a personality and a sense of purpose in our team.

If you don't think the leader - the one who is orchestrating the team, the one who is the spearhead of a system and the universal voice of the players is not responsible for doing so, then we just fundamentally agree on what a good leader is . This is a guy who just passes blame -- 'oh these guys are forgetting my plays from the last two years !" he always passes the blame. It's not good for morale and it's not honest.

If JH was a great offensive person, or a person with a defense strategy -- at least we could hang our hat on that but he isn't . He's not good at anything that is evidenced on court and I do not see him doing anything off court that is making this team better either .

I also believe the front office - including McDonuts is playing an elaborate game of fantasy basketball just plugging people with stats into a wall chart and hoping for it to work , because, analytically it makes sense. None of these guys [ McD, JH ] seem to have emotions or a personality which is why our team looks like a corpse out there .

-R

ps. Also this above response is not directed to Shel just a reply to my feelings about the situation. XO

[Mori Chu]

I would go Thibs before Mike D. I don't think a D'Antoni team can win the title except for maybe if he were handed a fully developed product like the current Warriors or something. MikeD doesn't coach defense and isn't versatile. He has some innovative out-of-timeout offensive plays, and he's great at coaching a freeflowing offense, but I don't think he has the flexibility in his style to win in a gritty playoff series or to adapt when an opponent shuts down the team's primary plays or styles.

Thibs is a weak offensive coach, but his defense and discipline would be so amazing for this squad. And he would not put up with any bullshit. I really want more of that from this team, top to bottom.

[Ring_Wanted]

Hornacek wasn't a terrible coach 2 years ago when those players fit his system. Or maybe, when Dragic was here running and handling the offense and making decisions. Now all of a sudden Hornacek can't coach? We sometimes forget, or want to think, a coach should be able to coach all kinds of players and any kind of roster and find success.

Two years ago we didn't have two kids who were outplaying vets, as Goodwin was raw as hell and Len was injuried. Also, two years ago Hornacek didn't try to guard Drummond with Kieff-Leuer when Len and Chandler were avilable. Inmates weren't running the asylum. Stuff like this, when the team is so mundane, really irk people.

Of course many things have changed over two seasons. The success in 13-14 came with an offense based on a lethal pick and pop that opened space for the slashers, plus a number of three point threats besides Frye (Green, Marcus, PJ from the corner), then Markieff off the bench to punish worse players. And of course, fastbreaks. On defense they guarded the 3pt line pretty well, and for some time there was rim protection in form of Miles Plumlee.

Fast forward one year of miscalculations and questionable moves (won't call anything ill-advised because on paper most things looked at last defensible, even IT3, even Knight from certain angles) and this 15-16 squad is nothing like that product.

The coach and the GM insist on the two PG lineup, and invest heavily in it. But Dragic is so different to Knight. One is a smart decision maker and the other has a knack for hero shots and bad passes. 13-14 worked in part because Dragic and Bledsoe complemented each other really well, but that's not the case with Knight. No reputable stretch forwad hurts everything a good deal as well.

So now what. Let's wait, the season is young. Ok, but at the risk of getting ahead of oneself, let's say after 20-30 games we end up being more or less what we are looking like at the moment. Bad shooting, low IQ, inefficiency. In a word, ugliness. I guess you have to do something, don't you? Either adapt the roster to the coach's style, or change the coach to someone who can make better use of the ability available.

But really, if what you see is what you get, something needs to be done because ever since last season, this product is too often just insufferable.

I get that the plan is to build a solid roster capable of winning games while keeping cap space to attract a superstar. I buy it, it's good in theory and it's worked in other places, but the problem is that in practice it is being implemented poorly. One step forward, one step backward. The league stars see it, they want no part of it and it's been strike two already. Strategically there is room for a third try, but money alone doesn't get it done anymore (maybe not even for the Lakers) and to make things worse, everybody will have room to spend next offseason.

[Mori Chu]

We should trade Brandon Knight to the Lakers for a first-round pick. Oh, wait, they'd never be dumb enough to do that.