Phx-Suns.Net

LazarusLong wrote:Two names to consider: Dave DeBusschere and Gus Johnson.

When the Knicks traded Walt Bellamy for DeBusschere, the pieces fell into place and they won a championship. DeBusschere was a tough as nails defender.

Combine Larry Johnson's frame with David Thompson's hang time and you have Gus Johnson, at least for the early part of his career. After Honeycomb lost his "ups" he still was rugged rebounder and defender. And when he was playing, only Wilt was thought to be stronger.

Rodman is a tough case. Energizer Bunny on defense and rebounding. Little offense. Truckloads of attitude. But when he combined with Jordan and Pippen, it was the Triangle from Hell.

I can't really include Rodman because he was so destructive in San Antonio and at the end of his career. I think the case for Schayes is pretty strong - he retired as the NBA's all-time leading scorer, went to 12 All-Star Games and was all-NBA 1st or 2nd team 12 times (Kevin McHale was a grand total of once, Rodman was 3rd team twice)

LazarusLong wrote:One who might have been: Maurice Stokes.

Another blast from the deep past: Vern Mikkelsen.

Or Bill Walton.

Maurice Stokes was really the NBA's first black star. He cam into the league in 1955, a year before Bill Russell, and while most black players were relegated to defensive roles and were complimentary players, Stokes was a terrific rebounder and passer and could also score. He was probably the best rebounder in the league during his career and was always in the top 10 in assists and was named to the All-Star Game all three of the seasons he played.

The Bobster wrote:They're almost finished with their PF list (they haven't revealed the top two yet, but we all know who they are) -

1 Duncan, 2. Malone, 3. Nowitzki, 4. Barkley, 5. Garnett 6. McHale, 7. Pettit, 8. Hayes, 9. Gasol, 10. Rodman

I would probably flip-flop Pettit and McHale and maybe flip-flip Dirk and Barkley. Also I would drop Rodman and replace him with Dolph Schayes.

Barkley probably hit a slightly higher level at his peak vs. Dirk's peak, but if you factor in longevity/career stats (6th! all time leading scorer) and the fact that Dirk has a ring and I think he's clearly ahead in the all time list.

I agree with that. And Barkley's peak wasn't all that much better than Dirk's. There were a few years there where every time you played the Mavs, Dirk was going to absolutely torch you. And there was not much you could do about it. If the game was close at the end, Dirk was going to drain a dagger shot and beat you.

stephen curry is DEFINITELY better than john stockton and probably oscar robertson too.

franchise player question: stephen curry > Big O

The Bobster wrote:Just a wild guess at the centers -

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Hakeem, 5. Shaq, 6. Moses, 7. Robinson, 8. Mikan 9. Thurmond, 10. Ewing. With Reed, Gilmore, Unseld, Parish and Mutombo on the outside looking in.

kareem should be numero uno. havent seen wilt and bill russell's game, so i cant comment.

1 kareem
2 shaq
3 akeem
4 robinson
5 ewing

Wilt was the most physically dominant player the league has ever seen. Shaq was a close second, but Wilt was more skilled in addition to his size advantage. Mikan also has to be mentioned, his teams won championships in 5 of his 8 full seasons and he was by far the best player in the game. (There was a famous picture of the marquee at Madison Square Garden in 1949 that said "GEO. MIKAN VS. KNICKS")

Until Jordan came along I think you could have made the argument that Robertson was the greatest player ever (obviously Magic Johnson, Wilt, and Russell would be in the conversation).

I only caught the very end of the the careers of West, Chamberlain and Robertson. As good as he was for the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar was unbelievable in Milwaukee. And I think Moses Malone doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. He was relentless and dominated everybody for about a five-year stretch. Robinson, although he was one of my favorites would have been even better if he had that tunnel vision to focus him on basketball. Like KJ I always thought Robinson was more interested in things outside of sports and while they were great players they weren't hyper competitive like West, Jordan or Russell (for that matter Wilt wasn't really either).

SDC wrote:stephen curry is DEFINITELY better than john stockton and probably oscar robertson too.

franchise player question: stephen curry > Big O

Curry's peak is better than Stockton's, but Stockton was basically at his peak for 15-17 seasons, which is unbelievable. Curry is probably the greatest shooter in NBA history, and if he adds a couple more season like his last two I think he moves ahead of Stockton and Thomas to #3.

Quick question about the original IT (that is probably answered by the championships he won in 89/90).

When I look at his shooting percentages across the board, they seem rather average/pedestrian. I can only assume that it was his defense/passing/intangibles that led him to be considered one of the greatest PGs ever? That, and I do suppose he was the vocal leader of the Bad Boys.

Isiah was a great ball handler and passer, and good defensively, plus he was a prolific scorer when need be. His shooting wasn't bad (45% for his career), but he was mainly a streak shooter rather than a pure shooter.

Great basketball player, horrible basketball executive.

As Bobster knows, numbers can be misleading without context. The Detroit team Isiah came to was moribund. He energized it almost immediately.

Comparing Curry and Oscar is comparing apples and oranges. Entirely different players. Curry has had an impressive start to his career, and is tremendous shooter. A great finesse player with more than adequate defense.

Oscar was one of the top 3 or 4 players in his era. He was as big as many forwards in his day, and played the point. Few, if any weaknesses in his overall game.

The Bobster wrote:Just a wild guess at the centers -

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Hakeem, 5. Shaq, 6. Moses, 7. Robinson, 8. Mikan 9. Thurmond, 10. Ewing. With Reed, Gilmore, Unseld, Parish and Mutombo on the outside looking in.

A good list. Hard to argue with your choices, save for #10.

I would put Dave Cowens there. Had a great work rate, knew how to win (two titles) and had solid numbers.

Ewing had great longevity and career numbers, but he had teams built around him and still managed to come up short.

No [CENSORED]? He has three rings!

LazarusLong wrote:

The Bobster wrote:Just a wild guess at the centers -

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Hakeem, 5. Shaq, 6. Moses, 7. Robinson, 8. Mikan 9. Thurmond, 10. Ewing. With Reed, Gilmore, Unseld, Parish and Mutombo on the outside looking in.

A good list. Hard to argue with your choices, save for #10.

I would put Dave Cowens there. Had a great work rate, knew how to win (two titles) and had solid numbers.

Ewing had great longevity and career numbers, but he had teams built around him and still managed to come up short.

Crap. How could I not mention Cowens? He was one of those guys you loved if he was on your team, and hated when he played for the other team.


If Walton had stayed healthy he would have been somewhere in that top ten too.

The Bobster wrote:Wilt was the most physically dominant player the league has ever seen. Shaq was a close second, but Wilt was more skilled in addition to his size advantage. Mikan also has to be mentioned, his teams won championships in 5 of his 8 full seasons and he was by far the best player in the game. (There was a famous picture of the marquee at Madison Square Garden in 1949 that said "GEO. MIKAN VS. KNICKS")

Until Jordan came along I think you could have made the argument that Robertson was the greatest player ever (obviously Magic Johnson, Wilt, and Russell would be in the conversation).

I only caught the very end of the the careers of West, Chamberlain and Robertson. As good as he was for the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar was unbelievable in Milwaukee. And I think Moses Malone doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. He was relentless and dominated everybody for about a five-year stretch. Robinson, although he was one of my favorites would have been even better if he had that tunnel vision to focus him on basketball. Like KJ I always thought Robinson was more interested in things outside of sports and while they were great players they weren't hyper competitive like West, Jordan or Russell (for that matter Wilt wasn't really either).

me and @mhaubs consider alcindor to be the greatest center of all time.

bill russell, if he was playing today, would just be another ben wallace of deandre jordan type. good thing the other teams didnt do a lot of hack a russell back in the 50s, and maybe it would not have mattered since the celtics teams then were stacked.

The Bobster wrote:

SDC wrote:stephen curry is DEFINITELY better than john stockton and probably oscar robertson too.

franchise player question: stephen curry > Big O

Curry's peak is better than Stockton's, but Stockton was basically at his peak for 15-17 seasons, which is unbelievable. Curry is probably the greatest shooter in NBA history, and if he adds a couple more season like his last two I think he moves ahead of Stockton and Thomas to #3.

if you have a new franchise to rebuild, you choose curry over stockton easy. peasy.

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Hakeem, 5. Shaq, 6. Moses, 7. Robinson, 8. Mikan 9. Thurmond, 10. Ewing. With Reed, Gilmore, Unseld, Parish and Mutombo on the outside looking in.

my list

1) kareem

2) shaq

3) wilt

4) olajuwon

5) moses

6) robinson

7) ewing

8) Russell

9) Gilmore

10) Hassan Whiteside

The Bobster wrote:Isiah was a great ball handler and passer, and good defensively, plus he was a prolific scorer when need be. His shooting wasn't bad (45% for his career), but he was mainly a streak shooter rather than a pure shooter.

Great basketball player, horrible basketball executive.

isiah would not have been considered a top ten pg of all time if the pistons didnt win championships. joe dumars didnt deserve an expedited selection to the hall of fame.

Hahaha, Hassan Whiteside... That just made my day.