Game Day: Suns (6-5) @ Pistons (3-8), Wed 11/19/14

[da_suns_fan]

The only guy with more assists than Green last night was... Brandon Jennings.

So?

I ask again, has there EVER been a player on the Suns who chucked it as much as Gerald Green (27 shot attempts per 48)?

We all remember "Shannon the Cannon". He shot 20 shots per 40 minutes in 11-12. Jason Richardson approached 20 in 2009.

Amare has one season when he was shooting close at Gerald Greens current rate.....the season he only played 50 total minutes (05-06). Even then he was only at 25. That same season Marion was at 21 shot attempts (that was the best season of his career).

Whats worse is that Gerald isnt even shooting the ball WELL. Hes shooting 47% from two which almost exactly the average rate among SGs and he shooting 31% from three (below average).

Gerald Green is the biggest chucker in the HISTORY of the Phoenix Suns.

[Indy]

I'm not looking to point fingers at anyone. I've watched every minute of every game so far. I don't like the way IT has been running the offense. It's just an observation.

I'm also not blaming him for our struggles.

I missed half of a game, but other than that I'm in the same boat. It may be ending up OK but it just doesn't feel right when I watch it.

[da_suns_fan]

Eddie House was just over 21 shots back in 05-06. Trying to think of others.

[AmareIsGod]

Statistically, Thomas has performed well at times. However, I too don't see solid "team ball" on offense when he's on the court.

[Indy]

The only guy with more assists than Green last night was... Brandon Jennings.

So?

I ask again, has there EVER been a player on the Suns who chucked it as much as Gerald Green (27 shot attempts per 48)?

We all remember "Shannon the Cannon". He shot 20 shots per 40 minutes in 11-12. Jason Richardson approached 20 in 2009.

Amare has one season when he was shooting close at Gerald Greens current rate.....the season he only played 50 total minutes (05-06). Even then he was only at 25. That same season Marion was at 21 shot attempts (that was the best season of his career).

Whats worse is that Gerald isnt even shooting the ball WELL. Hes shooting 47% from two which almost exactly the average rate among SGs and he shooting 31% from three (below average).

Gerald Green is the biggest chucker in the HISTORY of the Phoenix Suns.

Thanks for the research there. Considering how streaky he is, and that he is so far below his eFG% of the last few years, I expect it to even out a bit as the year goes on. And if he continues to have games where he dishes out a handful of assists, doesn't get more than a TO or two, and gets his eFG% back above 50%, I won't have much to complain about from our bench two guard.

[AmareIsGod]

And agreed. Green has been chucking at an alarming rate. It's like he and Thomas are battling for most FG attempts per game.

[Superbone]

Green is paid to shoot the ball. Coach wants him to shoot the ball. You guys act like it's a surprise that he shoots it so often. Now, granted, he could cut out the contested shots a little better.

[Ring_Wanted]

It's the shots where there is no rebounder anywhere near the basket the ones he needs to cut, as well as those where spending the clock favors us.

I don't mind that his attempts are contested as he is a monster shot maker, but at least allow the team the chance to get the ball back, and above all don't give the opposite team more chances to win a game.

I can perfectly live with the rest of his game and indeed take the good with the bad.

[Ring_Wanted]

I'm not looking to point fingers at anyone. I've watched every minute of every game so far. I don't like the way IT has been running the offense. It's just an observation.

I'm also not blaming him for our struggles.

I think exactly the same.

[ShelC]

If we know Thomas needs the ball in his hands to be effective, either setting other guys up on his penetration or to create his own shot, then the 2nd unit should be Him, PJ Tucker, maybe Tolliver and Plumlee. You can't have him out there with Bledsoe or Green especially. We probably need to really tighten up the rotation to take advantage of our guys' skills. That might mean Green and Tolliver are out. I wouldn't put Green and Thomas together because they're going to take too many shots and Green tends to try to make plays he can't. Thomas needs defenders and shooters around him. That's why PJ is a good fit, Plum and maybe even Warren who can score in transition and without plays being run for him.

Bledsoe, Dragic, Morri and Len with Thomas, Tucker, TJ, Plum...throw one of the Morri or Tolliver out there to round it out.

EDIT: Just looked at our 5 man units on 82games and sure enough one of our better lineups (tho it's a very small sample size) is Thomas, Tucker, Green, Marcus and Plumlee at +20. Our worst lineup is the one we've been playing the most with Bledsoe, Dragic, the Morri and Plumlee at -6. Replace Plumlee with Len and it's +6.

I also remember last year that Green was much more effective as a SG and not a SF tho this year he only seems to be getting run at the SF spot.

[specialsauce]

That is 100% misleading. Stephon Marbury once averaged 9 assists per game. When you have the ball 80% of the time, your assists will artificially be inflated. If you think Isaiah has been a good facilitator based off his assist totals, I question if you have been watching the games.

And it doesn't matter that he's not starting. He's playing 20+ minutes per game. We're paying him 7 million annually. "At least he's not playing a ton of minutes" is clearly not a player worth that amount

He leads the team in assists per minute too. He's actually tied with Bledsoe.

Missed my point my friend. He holds the ball for most the possession when he's in, so naturally if he ends up passing at the end of the shot clock to have someone bail him out, hell get the assist. His assists aren't a reflection of a team game, it's the ball being in his hands the whole possession.

[Indy]

I am not missing your point, and based on what I see when I watch games, he dominates the ball too much. I agree with you there.

My point is that although it feels when we watch the games that he is dominating the ball, it is working out so far. Take a look at his win share--nobody has a higher one on the team. And his win share per 48 minutes is 2nd only to Len. Although we are almost all seeing him over-dominate when he is in there, it is having positive net results on the game. What it does to the team chemistry is yet to be determined.

[ShelC]

If that's his game and he's an effective scorer and can carry the load offensively (which he's proven he can do), build around that with the 2nd unit. If it translates into success, go with it and maximize it. Don't try and make him a PG that has to distribute and get others involved.

[The Bobster]

FGA per 48 Minutes

Charlie Scott
1972-73 - 28.4
1973-74 - 28.1
1974-75 - 29.5

Paul Westphal
1975-76 - 21.5
1976-77 - 24.3
1977-78 - 30.3
1978-79 - 27.1
1979-80 - 23.7

Walter Davis
1977-78 - 27.7
1978-79 - 26.8
1979-80 - 24.2
1980-81 - 24.2

[Mori Chu]

If we know Thomas needs the ball in his hands to be effective, either setting other guys up on his penetration or to create his own shot, then the 2nd unit should be Him, PJ Tucker, maybe Tolliver and Plumlee. You can't have him out there with Bledsoe or Green especially. We probably need to really tighten up the rotation to take advantage of our guys' skills. That might mean Green and Tolliver are out. I wouldn't put Green and Thomas together because they're going to take too many shots and Green tends to try to make plays he can't. Thomas needs defenders and shooters around him. That's why PJ is a good fit, Plum and maybe even Warren who can score in transition and without plays being run for him.

Bledsoe, Dragic, Morri and Len with Thomas, Tucker, TJ, Plum...throw one of the Morri or Tolliver out there to round it out.

EDIT: Just looked at our 5 man units on 82games and sure enough one of our better lineups (tho it's a very small sample size) is Thomas, Tucker, Green, Marcus and Plumlee at +20. Our worst lineup is the one we've been playing the most with Bledsoe, Dragic, the Morri and Plumlee at -6. Replace Plumlee with Len and it's +6.

I also remember last year that Green was much more effective as a SG and not a SF tho this year he only seems to be getting run at the SF spot.

Good post. The more I think about our problems as a team this year, the more I think a lot of them will just be solved by:

* getting more time/experience playing together
* starting LEN and benching Plumlee (sorry, Plums)

The stats you gave lend support to such an idea. I think Len in the starting lineup will have a big positive impact, and Plumlee as a backup center won't be nearly as maddening. Also, that way hopefully the bench won't enter with a 10-point deficit to climb out of.

[Split T]

IT3 spends more time than Dragic and Bledsoe as the only pg on the court, so naturally he's gonna have the ball in his hands when he's out there. He's often out there with green and tucker as his other perimeter players. I want the ball in IT's hands in those situations. He does dribble more than Bled or Dragic, who attack quickly when they have the ball, dragic especially, but this shouldn't be a surprise. He's a ball dominant point guard, we knew that when we signed him and is what he does best. And like Indy said, the stats show that whatever he is doing is working and helping us win games. I think the complaints about him are a little ignorant.

[specialsauce]

Statistically, Thomas has performed well at times. However, I too don't see solid "team ball" on offense when he's on the court.

Agreed. Indy I looked through the stats and see you're right, but I still don't think our team plays its best ball when he's on the court, especially when he's on the court AND he's having a poor shooting night. We'll see if that changes.

[specialsauce]

IT3 spends more time than Dragic and Bledsoe as the only pg on the court, so naturally he's gonna have the ball in his hands when he's out there. He's often out there with green and tucker as his other perimeter players. I want the ball in IT's hands in those situations. He does dribble more than Bled or Dragic, who attack quickly when they have the ball, dragic especially, but this shouldn't be a surprise. He's a ball dominant point guard, we knew that when we signed him and is what he does best. And like Indy said, the stats show that whatever he is doing is working and helping us win games. I think the complaints about him are a little ignorant.

Yeah, well your face is ignorant!

[Indy]

IT3 spends more time than Dragic and Bledsoe as the only pg on the court, so naturally he's gonna have the ball in his hands when he's out there. He's often out there with green and tucker as his other perimeter players. I want the ball in IT's hands in those situations. He does dribble more than Bled or Dragic, who attack quickly when they have the ball, dragic especially, but this shouldn't be a surprise. He's a ball dominant point guard, we knew that when we signed him and is what he does best. And like Indy said, the stats show that whatever he is doing is working and helping us win games. I think the complaints about him are a little ignorant.

Yeah, well your face is ignorant!

[Split T]

IT3 spends more time than Dragic and Bledsoe as the only pg on the court, so naturally he's gonna have the ball in his hands when he's out there. He's often out there with green and tucker as his other perimeter players. I want the ball in IT's hands in those situations. He does dribble more than Bled or Dragic, who attack quickly when they have the ball, dragic especially, but this shouldn't be a surprise. He's a ball dominant point guard, we knew that when we signed him and is what he does best. And like Indy said, the stats show that whatever he is doing is working and helping us win games. I think the complaints about him are a little ignorant.

Yeah, well your face is ignorant!

I did a little playing around with some of the player tracking stats on nba.com, basically just took each players time of possession and divided it by their touches per game to find out how long each player has the ball each time they touch it. No surprise that IT leads the suns holding the ball 4.73 seconds each time he gets it. Bledsoe is 4.16 seconds, Dragic 3.95.

So yes, IT does tend to hold the ball more and I think you mentioned it SS, that it becomes even more noticeable and frustrating when he is not producing. He's had a couple games recently where his shot wasn't falling and it would be nice if he'd learn to defer more in those situations. He and green are in the irrational confidence club that Bill Simmons used to talk about. They always think they are gonna make their next shot, even if they are 1 for 9, and their style of play never really changes whether they are hot or cold. Unless they are 8 for 9, then you know their is zero chance they will pass the ball.

I didn't figure it out for everyone, but if curious Green was 2.57 seconds, Markieff was 1.39 seconds.

Players around the league: Reggie Jackson 5.33, Parker 4.95, Harden 4.58, Kobe 4.51, CP3 4.4, LBJ 3.85, Steph Curry 3.72, Carmelo 2.51.

Numbers are gonna be skewed a little towards point guards because they usually bring the ball up the court which tends to take more time than a typical touch.