2017 NBA Draft Lottery

[Split T]

Pippen and Kawhi comparisons are redundant - their wing spans are enormous, jackson's is barely above his own height.

The thing about Jackson for me is his passing ability - he'd slot in nicely as a play making 3 which might negate bledsoe's limitations if that's how we decide to roll.

From what I can find, Kawhi and pippen have 7'0 wingspans. Jackson is 6'9-6'10. Not a huge difference, but he's still not on the level defensively as Kawhi or pippen

[3rdside]

I've been running with 7'3" for both of them (pippen for a lot longer of course) vs about what you said for Jackson - that's miles apart. I'm 6'6.5" (w/o shoes lol) with a 6'11" span so tend to take note of these things and appreciate the physical freaks for what they are (if only I'd discovered tennis earlier but that's a whole other story!)

[3rdside]

*that assumes I'm right of course - humble pie happy to be eaten if I'm wrong.

[Split T]

You may be right, I just did a quick Google Search and the 7'0 number popped up. It wasn't anything official. I would have thought Kawhi had a longer wingspan. Maybe I'll try to find something more official.

Edit: Draft express lists Kawhi with a 7'3 wingspan from the draft combine. They list pippen at 7'0, but there are numerous places that list the 7'3 figure. Not sure which is accurate.

[3rdside]

Generally speaking there is a huge correlation between defensive ability and wing span - pippen was one of the best so I'm fairly comfortable saying it's 7'3". I'd be surprised to see any DPOY candidates that didn't have a span far in excess of their height.


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[3rdside]

Even though 7'0" vs 6'7"/6'8" is a reasonable excess - Jordan was a DPOY with 6'11" vs 6'6" excess just as an fyi. You'd have to think that at SF Pippen was competing with much larger guys relatively speaking than was Jordan and therefore would have needed a much larger span to stand out as a DPOY candidate.


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[Split T]

Wingspan is definitely helpful, but it's not going to keep Jackson from being a good defender. Jackson isn't going to the combine, so we might not get any new measurements, but his pre college measurements were 6'8 with shoes and a 6'10 wingspan. Other comparable players:

Jimmy Butler 6'8/6'8
Gordon Hayward 6'8/6'8
Andre Iguodala 6'7/6'11
Paul George 6'9/6'11
Shane Battier 6'9/6'10
Joe Johnson 6'8/6'9

Most of those guys are really good defenders.

[1tinsoldier]

Lavar on the Lonzo shoe price, "I liked the way it sounds," and "If you can't afford the ZO2'S, you're NOT a BIG BALLER!"

[ShelC]

I'm honestly not that big a fan of Jackson and will be mildly disappointed if we end up with him.

I will admit that my entire knowledge of college basketball comes from watching a few tournament games and some YouTube videos. But I just don't see much about Jackson that I find impressive. He seems profoundly mediocre to me, both in terms of athleticism and shooting. I don't get the appeal and I don't see a lot of star potential. I think getting a top-2 pick will have way, way more impact than having pick #3.

His shooting is definitely mediocre, but his athleticism is not. His appeal is that he's a 2 way player who is very versatile on offense and defense. I think there is a very real possibility he's never a star, think Andre Iguodala. But if his jump shot is legit, he could be special. He's 6'8, athletic, handles like a guard and sees the floor very well. He's a better prospect than Kawhi was coming into the NBA. I don't think he'll be Kawhi, but he's got some of that in his game.

I do think he'll have some struggles as a primary option, which is why I see him more as the Philly version of Iggy than Kawhi or Jimmy Butler, but no one really thought Kawhi or Butler would be good primary options either.

I think he'll compliment booker perfectly. He'll cover for him defensively, will be a secondary play maker and he moves well without the ball. A jump shot is really all he's missing. And his jumper isn't broken, he shot 37-38% from the college 3

But is that worthy of a 2-3 pick? And while he may be able to make shots, his form isn't great and I see a guys like him and Ball getting their shots and points off against lesser competition. A big indicator is FT% and he just 55%. Now a lot of guys get better from the line as they get older but it's something to keep an eye on. My concern is that a guy like Jackson gets into the league, maybe becomes a plus defender and athlete but his offense regresses. He just doesn't seem to have fundamentally sound offense. Best case right now, he's on an Andrew Wiggins trajectory. I don't see Butler's scoring ability or Kahwi's fundamentals yet.

The wingspan thing...it all comes down to the individual. Physical traits certainly help, but Battier was a great defender, Artest, Tony Allen, Chris Paul...those guys aren't boasting 7ft+ wingspans. Meanwhile, we always got excited about LB's 6-11 wingspan but he was never a standout defender. If a guy isn't playing smart or hard, his body and athleticism will only take him so far.

In other news, teams called the Knicks asking about Porzingis after he skipped his exit interview. I still say try and package our pick plus some combo of Chriss/Bender, TJ, Knight, Bledsoe and a future pick or two for Porzingis and the Knicks' pick this year. The Knicks want to move up for Fultz, Ball or Fox and we can put a package together.

[3rdside]

Wingspan is definitely helpful, but it's not going to keep Jackson from being a good defender. Jackson isn't going to the combine, so we might not get any new measurements, but his pre college measurements were 6'8 with shoes and a 6'10 wingspan. Other comparable players:

Jimmy Butler 6'8/6'8
Gordon Hayward 6'8/6'8
Andre Iguodala 6'7/6'11
Paul George 6'9/6'11
Shane Battier 6'9/6'10
Joe Johnson 6'8/6'9

Most of those guys are really good defenders.

NBA Defensive Team Appearances:

- Jimmy Butler - 2nd team x 3
- Gordon Hayward - N/A
- Andre Iguodala - 1st team x 1, 2nd team x 1
- Paul George - 1st team x 1, 2nd team x 2
- Shane Battier - 2nd team x 2
- Joe Johnson - N/A

So agreed on Jackson. Iguodala, on the basis of your measurements, probably qualifies as having excess wing span, leaving George as the only 1st teamer, so they're mainly very good, rather than great, defenders.


Looking at the DPOY list below, Joakim Noah is 6'11" and has a span of 7'1" so either the 'abnormal excess wing span over height' theory doesn't work, or there's extra parts to it:

1. The taller you get, the narrower your shoulders become i.e. there is a correlation between the two. Therefore as a taller player, you're likely to be in the paint where your priority is blocking and deterring shots and it's your standing reach that helps with this. Shoulder width has no impact on standing reach but it does on wing span. As such, it seems you can be an elite defender with only a moderate excess of wing span over height but it's very likely you're going to be a tall, paint player.

Paul George is a bit of an outlier.

2. As the players get shorter, the excess wing span over height becomes greater as you're now adding increased shoulder width on top of long arms. Therefore to be an elite, shorter, defender (Artest, Leonard, Pippen etc), the longer your wing span will be relative to guys your size as steals, defensive deflections and smothering become your priority, and wingspan - sideways reach - helps with this. This supports the theory.

Ben Wallace in the list below is just a sick beast.

2001–02 Ben Wallace 6'7" / 7'2"
2002–03 Ben Wallace 
2003–04 Ron Artest 6'7" / 7'2"
2004–05 Ben Wallace 
2005–06 Ben Wallace 
2006–07 Marcus Camby 6'11 / 7'4"
2007–08 Kevin Garnett 6'11" / 7'4"
2008–09 Dwight Howard 6'11" / 7'4"
2009–10 Dwight Howard
2010–11 Dwight Howard
2011–12 Tyson Chandler 6'11" / 7'2"
2012–13 Marc Gasol 7'1" / 7'4"
2013–14 Joakim Noah 6'11" / 7'1"
2014–15 Kawhi Leonard - 6'7" / 7'3"
2015–16 Kawhi Leonard

[3rdside]

I would not bet my life on the above physical measurements being accurate, just the best could find.

[Cap]

Whose life would you bet?

[Split T]

So agreed on Jackson. Iguodala, on the basis of your measurements, probably qualifies as having excess wing span, leaving George as the only 1st teamer, so they're mainly very good, rather than great, defenders

I mostly included Iggy because his total length is about equal to Jackson. I think where Jackson might struggle, or at least not be as good, is in defending 4's.

Anyone know what kind of wingspan Marion had?

[Superbone]

Lavar on the Lonzo shoe price, "I liked the way it sounds," and "If you can't afford the ZO2'S, you're NOT a BIG BALLER!"

I hope the shoe fails. That price is ridiculous.

[Split T]

I'm honestly not that big a fan of Jackson and will be mildly disappointed if we end up with him.

I will admit that my entire knowledge of college basketball comes from watching a few tournament games and some YouTube videos. But I just don't see much about Jackson that I find impressive. He seems profoundly mediocre to me, both in terms of athleticism and shooting. I don't get the appeal and I don't see a lot of star potential. I think getting a top-2 pick will have way, way more impact than having pick #3.

His shooting is definitely mediocre, but his athleticism is not. His appeal is that he's a 2 way player who is very versatile on offense and defense. I think there is a very real possibility he's never a star, think Andre Iguodala. But if his jump shot is legit, he could be special. He's 6'8, athletic, handles like a guard and sees the floor very well. He's a better prospect than Kawhi was coming into the NBA. I don't think he'll be Kawhi, but he's got some of that in his game.

I do think he'll have some struggles as a primary option, which is why I see him more as the Philly version of Iggy than Kawhi or Jimmy Butler, but no one really thought Kawhi or Butler would be good primary options either.

I think he'll compliment booker perfectly. He'll cover for him defensively, will be a secondary play maker and he moves well without the ball. A jump shot is really all he's missing. And his jumper isn't broken, he shot 37-38% from the college 3

But is that worthy of a 2-3 pick? And while he may be able to make shots, his form isn't great and I see a guys like him and Ball getting their shots and points off against lesser competition. A big indicator is FT% and he just 55%. Now a lot of guys get better from the line as they get older but it's something to keep an eye on. My concern is that a guy like Jackson gets into the league, maybe becomes a plus defender and athlete but his offense regresses. He just doesn't seem to have fundamentally sound offense. Best case right now, he's on an Andrew Wiggins trajectory. I don't see Butler's scoring ability or Kahwi's fundamentals yet.

Valid points. I worry about him as a shooter and as an ISO scorer, but he brings so much else to the table that I'm willing to pick him. My question is who would you pick ahead of him at 3?

[ShelC]

If we're at two and either Ball or Fultz are on the board, you take them and figure it out later. The best part is that we have Booker, who I think could play next to either guy. The issue(s) would be moving Knight and/or Bledsoe.

At 3, you probably have to take him. I love Fox but not sure I'd take him and then have to move Bledsoe and Knight. I like Tatum a lot but not sure I'd take him as high as 3. Might look to trade back if I think Tatum is the better player.

[Split T]

I'm OK with that. What if Fultz and ball are gone and we're picking at 3?

[TOO]

If we're at two and either Ball or Fultz are on the board, you take them and figure it out later. The best part is that we have Booker, who I think could play next to either guy. The issue(s) would be moving Knight and/or Bledsoe.

At 3, you probably have to take him. I love Fox but not sure I'd take him and then have to move Bledsoe and Knight. I like Tatum a lot but not sure I'd take him as high as 3. Might look to trade back if I think Tatum is the better player.

Dont think Tatum makes it out of the top 4, wouldnt trade back personally.

[Split T]

If we're at two and either Ball or Fultz are on the board, you take them and figure it out later. The best part is that we have Booker, who I think could play next to either guy. The issue(s) would be moving Knight and/or Bledsoe.

At 3, you probably have to take him. I love Fox but not sure I'd take him and then have to move Bledsoe and Knight. I like Tatum a lot but not sure I'd take him as high as 3. Might look to trade back if I think Tatum is the better player.

I somehow missed the 2nd paragraph. That seems pretty reasonable. I think Tatum is going to be a good player, I'm not sure how he fits with Warren here though. I think I'd take Isaac, fox, Ntilikina, and monk over him.

[TOO]

If we're at two and either Ball or Fultz are on the board, you take them and figure it out later. The best part is that we have Booker, who I think could play next to either guy. The issue(s) would be moving Knight and/or Bledsoe.

At 3, you probably have to take him. I love Fox but not sure I'd take him and then have to move Bledsoe and Knight. I like Tatum a lot but not sure I'd take him as high as 3. Might look to trade back if I think Tatum is the better player.

I somehow missed the 2nd paragraph. That seems pretty reasonable. I think Tatum is going to be a good player, I'm not sure how he fits with Warren here though. I think I'd take Isaac, fox, Ntilikina, and monk over him.

You cant draft that way unless you have all those guys rated higher IMO. BPA is mandatory at this stage of rebuilding, I like Warren, but not enough to pass on Tatum. Monk? Really? A small 2? Too much Knight there for my liking.