Isaiah Thomas to Suns in Sign and Trade

[Sunsfan4life]

4yrs/21.5 mil.

Who exactly were the in a bidding war for to offer a 4yr deal to Nick Young?

[Ring_Wanted]

They are giving Kobe his chance to still be relevant, two years. Maybe they have realized thst they'll have to wait until he is gone

[Wally_West]

I like what the lakers are doing so far because they are making a shitty team but not too shitty that they will be a top 5 worst team which means higher odds in getting their draft pick.

[iLLmatic]

There were a lot of uninformed, negative assumptions voiced when the news started coming in that the Suns were serious about pursuing and signing him, but it seems like the tide is turning a bit and posters are starting to realize just how good he is. And the contract is perfect.

That's how you build a team when you aren't getting superstars, top lotto picks, and you're in a small market. You have to get good value on your contracts.

I think I'm starting see McD's style as a GM. If I could compare him to a stock investor he's in the mold of a Ben Graham or Warren Buffet - he's a value investor. McD is finding players who have a low value in the market and buying, sooner or later he'll sell high on those assets, and profit.

At first the Isaiah Thomas didn't make sense with the logjam at guard but it looks like we are going to use the farm league in Bakersfield to develop some of our players such as Ennis which is great.

INF, I have a question for you. What do you think the Suns should do with Bledsoe? Do you think they should sign or trade or let him walk?

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I can see Bledsoe moved if the right deal arises, but not because of the IT2 signing. IT2 is not his replacement, like Warren was not taken as Tucker's replacement either. In both cases you have diferent aproaches about the same "position", more clear to see in a "Warren vs Tucker" at SF. Thomas is more of an Ish replacement, a huge upgrade, wich allow to reduce the load on the starters.

The odd man out here is Ennis, who certainly wouls be glued to the bench no matter how well he does on summer league and training camp. I already see him as our Bakersfield's first alumni. Still, when on the drafting clock, I don't blame McD for not knowing what would be the state of that position a month later. And we still are sailing the waters of bringing back Bledsoe.

I can see Bledsoe moved as easily as I can see the Morri moved, and in both cases you have Green sliding to the two or the three acording to needs. You can as well move Green and hold the SF spot with PJ, TJ and Marcus, while keeping Dragic, Bledsoe, Thomas and Goodwin at guards. It's about flexibility.

Once I said this, I fully agree that we need more options at 4 no doubt about it. Markieff as a starter with Marcus and TJ as tweener backups, just don't cut it for me. I guess that is why they are going to try that Len/Plumle pairing on Summer League.

[INFORMER]

INF, I have a question for you. What do you think the Suns should do with Bledsoe? Do you think they should sign or trade or let him walk?

Of course sign and trade is preferable. But I would rather let him walk then retain him on a salary north of $12 million. There really isn't any need for him at all.

Yes, he's a very good player, but instead of focusing on the record the Suns had with him over the span of 40 games, I rather look at what was accomplished without him. They were essentially a .500 team with Goran and a bunch of castoffs. The fielded a .500 team in a unbelievably tough conference without even trying. Now they've added a point guard on a great contract that averaged 20 ppg, they have the internal improvement from Len/Goodwin/maybe Plumlee, and at the very least they have TJ Warren who looks like he may be a scoring machine. And Dragic played his best ball when he is the primary ball-handler. So we have a should-have-been All-Star point guard who just happens to be our best player and another point guard that averaged 20 ppg on 45% shooting last season, and who's only 25.

It baffles me how anyone can think plunging a max deal or close to it into another point guard with an injury history and who marginalizes the two other point guards on the team is a good investment or a prudent use of resources.

I get not wanting a talent like Bledsoe for nothing, but we're talking about a player acquired for pennies on the dollar and who only played 40 games for this team. This isn't an established franchise cornerstone that cost an arm and a leg to acquire.

[INFORMER]

Thomas is more of an Ish replacement, a huge upgrade, wich allow to reduce the load on the starters.

Even with using the phrase "huge upgrade," calling Thomas Ish's replacement seems just silly. I think someone mentioned this in another: it's like calling LeBron James Luol Deng's replacement. I know Coro, in his new found role of regime apologist and ideology advocate, is pushing this whole third guard crap, but regardless of what role the Suns have planned for him, it doesn't change who he is: he's an offensive dynamo, and there really isn't a point guard in the league that can defend him one on one. That kind of player doesn't belong in the same sentence as Ish Smith.

[Ring_Wanted]

Now they've added a point guard on a great contract that averaged 20 ppg

They have added a short version of Jamal Crawford.

The domino you are looking in terms of fit is not Bledsoe, it is Gerald Green.

[INFORMER]

Crawford is a bad comparison. Thomas is a legitimate point guard. He has better shot selection than Green or Crawford. Sacramento wants a Rajon Rondo-type point guard. Thomas makes less sense with volume scoring, black holes like Gay and Cousins. The Suns don't have any players like that. Even Green, though he runs hot and cold, isn't going to get up shots and disrupt the offense like those guys can.

[Ring_Wanted]

Crawford is a bad comparison.

Will depend on how they use Thomas. If he comes off the bench with scoring as his main purpose, you have a killer one on one player with range in his jumpshot. Not quite 2014 Crawford as he is mainly a catch and shooter now, but there was a time when he played that way, or at least that's what I remember from his past days, above all in NY.

I don't know what will happen with Bledsoe, but I am not interested in playing Thomas-Dragic full time. In my opinion Thomas makes sense as the first perimeter scorer off the bench, which currently is Green's role.

[SDC]

INF, I have a question for you. What do you think the Suns should do with Bledsoe? Do you think they should sign or trade or let him walk?

Of course sign and trade is preferable. But I would rather let him walk then retain him on a salary north of $12 million. There really isn't any need for him at all.

.

you mean you'd retain bledsoe if the offer is 11.5 mil per year from the suns?

[Mori Chu]

I agree that Bledsoe is now a bit of an awkward fit. But I also don't think I like the starting backcourt of IT2-Dragic (or IT2-Bledsoe), so I don't really see how the pieces go together here.

Maybe the thinking is, hey, Hornacek made 2 PGs work, let's give him 3 and see what he can do.

Or maybe the thinking is, let's stop worrying about "point guard" versus "shooting guard". Let's just get a bunch of really good "guards" as our backcourt rotation. Let's make sure they can all pass, shoot well, run, and decently defend. Those are versatile guys and you can usually get away with having 2 of them on the floor at the same time as your backcourt. It's not too crazy.

[ShelC]

Maybe the thinking is, hey, Hornacek made 2 PGs work, let's give him 3 and see what he can do.

It's less about having two PGs and more about having versatile guards that complement each other. I don't think I'd put John Wall and Tony Parker together. I don't think I'd put Rondo and Shaun Livingston or Lowry and Bledsoe together. The key is getting guys who can combo with each other. It's more or less a guard's league now, so the more talent you have there, the better.

It can work. The combos I like are Bledsoe/Dragic, IT/Dragic, Bledsoe/Goodwin, IT/Goodwin. I don't think I like Bledsoe at the 2 so pairing him with IT doesn't entice me. Plus, both of those guys essentially need the ball in their hands to be effective so a guy that can work off the ball (Dragic, Goodwin) makes a better partner.

I think this may also go back to "play your best 5" philosophy. Why start/play a 6-6 guy at SG just because he's 6-6. Obviously you need to defend, but if that 6-6 guy isn't any good, why bother. Most 6-6 SGs are 3D types. We don't have a league of MJs, Drexlers, Reggies, Kobes, anymore. Like we did with 7SOL, go with talent and make them matchup. It's a bit different this time though, because size doesn't matter as much since we're not talking frontcourt players. It's not Shawn Marion getting outrebounded by Aldridge, Duncan, Boozer, Gasol and the like.

[Ring_Wanted]

The combos I like are Bledsoe/Dragic, IT/Dragic, Bledsoe/Goodwin, IT/Goodwin. I don't think I like Bledsoe at the 2 so pairing him with IT doesn't entice me. Plus, both of those guys essentially need the ball in their hands to be effective so a guy that can work off the ball (Dragic, Goodwin) makes a better partner.

I agree, ShelC. And I don't need for it to be a revolution like in 7SOL.

If the SGs of this time are increasingly more limited in skill, I have no problem going with two 'PGs', as long as they fit together. That's why I believe IT shouldn't have an impact on what happens with Bledsoe.

If you don't bring him back, do it because of health, contract, or both. But please not because you envision a Thomas-Dragic backcourt.

Anyway, there's still a logjam issue to go along with the extremely flawed PF/C rotation.

As for the rotations you suggested, Before IT-Dragic I'd try Bledsoe-IT. It's Archie who I'd rather put alongside Dragic.

[DrSublime]

first of all no idea how long phx-suns.net has been around, no one told me it moved to a new site~!

figured it out today when someone sent me an xbox PM, glad to see the site is back in some fashion..

that said...

I am so confused by the Thomas signing, Dragic, Bledsoe, Thomas, Ennis, Smith, Goodwin gives them 6 point guards (or combo guards), seems so overkill.... also Thomas is what 5'8, he's so small.. the contact is decent but this makes no sense to me.
They realistically can not keep 6 PG's on this roster.. somone is gone, probably Smith will get cut, maybe even trade Ennis to Toronto

[Mori Chu]

Hi Dr!! Welcome back! Yeah, we've been here for a few months now. Would love to get everybody back from the old site, but it's hard to reach everyone. I should reach out to Sose and ask him to forward the old URL to here, but I haven't done that yet.

I agree that the IT2 signing is perplexing. I like Thomas a lot as a player, but the fit doesn't feel right to me.

[SwingMan]

Hi Dr!! Welcome back! Yeah, we've been here for a few months now. Would love to get everybody back from the old site, but it's hard to reach everyone. I should reach out to Sose and ask him to forward the old URL to here, but I haven't done that yet.

I agree that the IT2 signing is perplexing. I like Thomas a lot as a player, but the fit doesn't feel right to me.

You can reach out all you want Mori, but it doesn't do any good when he doesn't reach back - it's been since last year since any of us have heard from him despite dozens of inquiries.....

[Beetlejuice]

Of course sign and trade is preferable. But I would rather let him walk then retain him on a salary north of $12 million. There really isn't any need for him at all.


It baffles me how anyone can think plunging a max deal or close to it into another point guard with an injury history and who marginalizes the two other point guards on the team is a good investment or a prudent use of resources.

I disagree,

(tldr; letting bledsoe walk nets us nothing we can achieve the same positive points in 2015 with keeping him, keeping bledsoe this offseason lets us have a ~85-90 million payroll while only having to pay 5 million Luxury tax one season because of the new national tv deal)

even if you dont want to pay him more than 12 million i really believe considering future NBA salary cap indications having bledsoe at max is still an formidable asset. I just cant see any scenario where not matching Bledsoe would be beneficial for us.

There is also such thing as the salary floor at 56.8 million into which i believe we are about 15 million under.

To my knowledge options are (ceteris paribus):

1) Bledsoe walks

a) Sign nobody long term and let Bledsoe walk = weaker team in 2014 but in 2015 have cap space around ~12 million. Still need to give 15 million worth of 1 year contracts or absorb those contracts.

b) If we sign someone this offseason + let Bledsoe Walk
~20 million to spend on someone(s) like Ed Davis, Blair, Cunningham, Humpries, Turner, Ayon, Kelly, Tolliver etc. It doesnt seem reasonable to spend so much to these remaining free agents.

[IMO there is nothing to gain from letting bledsoe walk, money needs to be spent, trading bledsoe mid season nets us more than just absorbing contracts, not many intriguing free agents left, if we want cap space in 2015 we could just trade him then]


2) Bledsoe stays at 15 million

a) sign nobody but bledsoe@15mil
2015 cap space 0(~75 mil payroll), over the cap ~10 mil.(Dragic extends@15, Morrises stay and take a discount at around 12 mil combined, Green stays too at 6 mil, add 2 rookies from Lakers and Suns pick).
*If we want cap space we can even just dump bledsoe + not sign rookies right away.

b) sign 10 mil worth of free agents and Bledsoe@15
2015 cap space 0(85 million payroll), over the luxury tax less than 5 mil (Dragic extends@15, Morrises stay and take a discount at around 12 mil combined, Green stays too at 6 mil, add 2 rookies from Lakers and Suns pick).

2016 new national TV Deal, lux tax somewhere 95-100 mil. Cap close to 80, salary floor ~70 million= No repeater tax with option to extend Miles unpunished.

Bledsoes deal if overpaid before, may become reasonable .



Low risk high reward in my eyes.

[INFORMER]

but I am not interested in playing Thomas-Dragic full time

What is full-time? The Suns have Goodwin, Green, and Ennis in addition to those two. They can easily add an Iman Shumpert (or some other guard) too. So I'm not sure any one combination has to receive an inordinate amount of the available playing time.

[INFORMER]

Spend the new money when it gets here. I think it is foolhardy to count your chickens before they hatch and spend wantonly and recklessly like so many teams have done this offseason.

The salary floor is a non-issue. There is no penalty for spending under it, and there are plenty of ways to reach it. So I find the "pay Bledsoe because we have to reach the salary floor" argument far from compelling.

And you never assume you can just move a max contract guy whenever you want. It is even worse to do so in the case of Bledsoe for three reasons:

1) The league is stock with point guards to the point that the number of suitors is already going to be limited.

2) You have no idea what the offers will look like. When you're moving that much salary, especially in season, you're almost guaranteed to have to take back a player or contract you don't want. I see no reason for the Suns to paint themselves in that corner.

3) His injury history.