Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[ShelC]

Cole's a legend in his own mind right now. I don't know that this would be the best environment for him. WCJ has an injury history that makes me hesitant. If he can stay healthy, he'd be a great piece but there's risk there.

It might make the most sense to sign or match a max deal, then trade him later unless the team that wants him has the capspace to take on the $30mil and we're cool with picks and a TPE.

[Split T]

I don’t think we’d get a top 3 pick in this draft, but if we could build a package with one of the teams picking 4-6 I might do it. That’s Sacramento, Detroit, and Indiana. All of them could be interested. Not super informed on this draft, but Keegan Murray, Jeremy Sochan, Shaedon Sharpe, Jalen Duren, AJ Griffin and Jaeden Ivey all seem pretty interesting to me.

[Wormwood]

This is going to be a brutal summer. SO many problems here.

* First and foremost: Ayton. Dude doesn't want to be here. Reportedly, Monty Williams yelled at him, "You freaking quit on us!" DA wants a fat paycheck and to be the center of the offense. Problem is, after a listless playoff series, and the well known problems here, he has the Suns over a barrel. Teams won't make him offers if they know the Suns will match. He can just hold out and take the QO, which leaves the Suns completely screwed in terms of getting something of value back. Whatever happens here, the Suns probably aren't getting back someone of equal value, especially not of value per dollar, where Ayton's rookie scale contract is a bargain comparatively

* Dead Money: Landry Shamet, Cameron Payne, and Dario Saric represent $25 million in dead money: essentially players who play at a level you could get out of a vet min player but at a much higher cost. You can't trade them (except maybe Saric, because he's expiring). But, they represent a drag on the rest of the team because they actively prevent you from paying your players who deserve a pay out (Cameron Johnson) or recruiting talent via free agency. The worst of the lot is Shamet, who has 4 more years at ~10.5M per year, after a season where he was generally terrible (though his defense improved somewhat as time went on). Paying too much for bad players usually prevents a team from improving at a minimum, and keeps them terrible more often. (See: Chandler, Tyson. or Gugliotta, Tom)

* No draft picks. Suns aren't getting any help out of the draft this year with no first or second round picks. Jones didn't go hard enough on win now, but he also sacrificed enough of the future that there's few good options this offseason

* CP3: He's 37. I'm not mad at him for getting hurt: Payne was awful and Monty had to play him big minutes to keep the Suns afloat. But, CP3 plays better with a P&R roller like Ayton, and Ayton is on the way out. So is McGee. If you're going to keep CP3 (which you have to is you want to keep Book happy), you need to deal with his minutes. Which they can't do, because of the dead money and the draft. F***.

* Jae Crowder: Jae is one of the best defenders in the NBA, when the match ups are right. When they aren't.... oof. He struggles against taller players who have a mid-range game, or a power game. This included Brandon Ingraham, Doncic, Durant, and Giannis. His offense is also pretty bad. He added to it a little bit this year, but when his 3 point shot isn't falling (which it frequently wasn't) he was a massive net negative on the court. Part of why Dallas destroyed Phoenix was that while on offense, Crowder was basically zero threat. The doubles were usually coming off of him.

* Book and CP3 are great, but there isn't a superstar. Suns need a guy at PF or C who take it to the next level and get the superstar calls. Unless they can land on for DA, I expect there to be a significant drop off next year.

* Upside: I expect Mikal Bridges to continue to make another step with his offensive game next year. Dude works so hard at his game that I'm pretty sure we'll see some new wrinkles next season.

[Split T]

One thing to keep in mind with Ayton on any sign and trade, the base year compensation rules take effect. Thanks to whoever posted them because I didn’t realize this was a thing until a few days ago.

Basically, Ayton will only count as 15 million going out, but 30 million coming in. So we can’t trade him straight up for say Siakam who makes 33 million. We’d have to add salary to be able to take on Siakam’s deal. You have to be within 125%, so that would be about 27 million. So we’d add 12 million in salary. Problem is Toronto counts Ayton as 30 million, so that extra 12 million pushes them to 42 million in salary in. Which is right on the threshold for what they can accept in salary.

It looks like Ayton, Payne, and Cam J for Siakam would work, but I don’t think we want to give up Cam J. Of course if both teams add salary it could work…So like Ayton, Payne, Saric for Siakam and Armani Brooks, and Malachi Flynn should work I think.

Point is it gets tricky cap wise to make it work. Recieving teams would have to take on more salary from us.

I did check and we should be able to make an Ayton for James trade work. James makes 44 million next year and the magic number we’d have to get to is about 35.6 million. So basically 20 million in added salary. Which could be Bridges, or obviously more preferably Payne, Craig, and either Saric, Shamet, or Crowder.

LAL could not accept more than 55 million and Ayton + the 20ish million would put them at just over 50 million, so there is some wiggle room.

The S&T becomes much easier if it involves a team with cap space, so look out for Detroit, Orlando, Indiana, and San Antonio.

[virtual9mm]

Folks -- can we stop posting terrible trade ideas for Ayton? Worst comes to worst, we'll simply match whatever offer sheet that Ayton signs. If he threatens to take the QO, we'll ask him to look up what happened to Nerlens Noel, Greg Monroe, etc.

Realistic trades would be for someone like KAT (who also needs a change in scenery), not a bunch of role players. The Suns already have enough of these. Ayton needs to be moved for a star.

[virtual9mm]

By the way, you can't trade Ayton for LeBron. Let the King force his way here without stripping ourselves of assets beyond the two Cams. We have a boatload of expiring contracts anyway.

[Wormwood]

By the way, you can't trade Ayton for LeBron. Let the King force his way here without stripping ourselves of assets beyond the two Cams. We have a boatload of expiring contracts anyway.

We do not have a lot of expirings of any value. Saric and Crowder are about it. Shamet is an albatross.

[ShelC]

Assuming this info is accurate, good breakdown of CBA/BYC stuff in S+Ts. Not a lot of options

[Split T]

Hmm, I’m not a cap expert so I’m worried my info is incorrect since this thread did not mention the scenarios I presented.

Can you not combine players in a sign and trade? He mentions two separate trades where Crowder is sent into a TPE and that being legal, but can you not add Crowder to the Ayton trade? If you can’t do that, then ya it’s basically impossible to sign and trade Ayton to a team without cap space.

[Split T]

Another issue, Booker will be eligible for a 4 year 211 million dollar extension this summer. I love Book, but he’s in that weird space where players get super max deals but aren’t really worth them. That deal would scare me. The one saving grace would be the big salary cap jump that’s coming and would make Booker’s deal not as massive.

[AmareIsGod]

* Jae Crowder: Jae is one of the best defenders in the NBA, when the match ups are right. When they aren't.... oof. He struggles against taller players who have a mid-range game, or a power game. This included Brandon Ingraham, Doncic, Durant, and Giannis. His offense is also pretty bad. He added to it a little bit this year, but when his 3 point shot isn't falling (which it frequently wasn't) he was a massive net negative on the court. Part of why Dallas destroyed Phoenix was that while on offense, Crowder was basically zero threat. The doubles were usually coming off of him.

All great points. This is the only one I don't agree with. Crowder was really our only consistent offensive threat during the Mavs series, sadly.

[Mori Chu]

We could always sign or match Ayton and keep him part of the coming season until the BYC rules stop applying, then trade him.

[Drewsprocket]

Another issue, Booker will be eligible for a 4 year 211 million dollar extension this summer. I love Book, but he’s in that weird space where players get super max deals but aren’t really worth them. That deal would scare me. The one saving grace would be the big salary cap jump that’s coming and would make Booker’s deal not as massive.

It’s not an issue. We’re the Phoenix Suns. You super max Devin Booker. It’s not a question. You fail to give him the supermax and you become the ridicule of every star player in the league, every nba insider, and turn Monty and JJ’s job into a steppingstone. That type of thinking is how you end up with players like Eric Bledsoe as your best player. We didn’t have an all star player since 2012 and before that 2010…both of whom were Nash.

[ShelC]

We could always sign or match Ayton and keep him part of the coming season until the BYC rules stop applying, then trade him.

This is the most logical move if DA is amenable and the team can move forward until Dec when his full salary can be traded and received back. We wouldn't be able to match an offer and then trade him to the team that signed him until summer '23 tho. So if the Magic give him a max offer and we match, we can't make a deal for WCJ and others until next year.

[ShelC]

* Jae Crowder: Jae is one of the best defenders in the NBA, when the match ups are right. When they aren't.... oof. He struggles against taller players who have a mid-range game, or a power game. This included Brandon Ingraham, Doncic, Durant, and Giannis. His offense is also pretty bad. He added to it a little bit this year, but when his 3 point shot isn't falling (which it frequently wasn't) he was a massive net negative on the court. Part of why Dallas destroyed Phoenix was that while on offense, Crowder was basically zero threat. The doubles were usually coming off of him.

All great points. This is the only one I don't agree with. Crowder was really our only consistent offensive threat during the Mavs series, sadly.

The Mavs definitely schemed to make Crowder the guy with the ball. He was regularly the open man and forced to make a play. Used to happen in the 7SOL days with guys like Raja and QRich in the playoffs. Truth is tho, you're not going to find 5 triple threat guys to throw out there who can make a play. Mavs schemed this, we couldn't adjust.

[Split T]

We could always sign or match Ayton and keep him part of the coming season until the BYC rules stop applying, then trade him.

This is the most logical move if DA is amenable and the team can move forward until Dec when his full salary can be traded and received back. We wouldn't be able to match an offer and then trade him to the team that signed him until summer '23 tho. So if the Magic give him a max offer and we match, we can't make a deal for WCJ and others until next year.

Ya this seems like the most likely scenario

[Split T]

Another issue, Booker will be eligible for a 4 year 211 million dollar extension this summer. I love Book, but he’s in that weird space where players get super max deals but aren’t really worth them. That deal would scare me. The one saving grace would be the big salary cap jump that’s coming and would make Booker’s deal not as massive.

It’s not an issue. We’re the Phoenix Suns. You super max Devin Booker. It’s not a question. You fail to give him the supermax and you become the ridicule of every star player in the league, every nba insider, and turn Monty and JJ’s job into a steppingstone. That type of thinking is how you end up with players like Eric Bledsoe as your best player. We didn’t have an all star player since 2012 and before that 2010…both of whom were Nash.

Ya I know it’s coming…just think it might make building a contender around him difficult. Could turn into a Beal with the Wizards situation.

[Superbone]

Eesh. I don't know. Tough to get value for Ayton. Maybe everybody just cools down and Ayton gets paid and settles down and we roll with him knowing his limitations and get the right help around him. I'd be really surprised if Ayton was really asking to go somewhere where he could be "the man." Just doesn't seem to be his personality. I guess he talks it but I rarely see it on the court. Never been the type to enforce his will and he's easily flustered by smaller players.

[Drewsprocket]

Another issue, Booker will be eligible for a 4 year 211 million dollar extension this summer. I love Book, but he’s in that weird space where players get super max deals but aren’t really worth them. That deal would scare me. The one saving grace would be the big salary cap jump that’s coming and would make Booker’s deal not as massive.

It’s not an issue. We’re the Phoenix Suns. You super max Devin Booker. It’s not a question. You fail to give him the supermax and you become the ridicule of every star player in the league, every nba insider, and turn Monty and JJ’s job into a steppingstone. That type of thinking is how you end up with players like Eric Bledsoe as your best player. We didn’t have an all star player since 2012 and before that 2010…both of whom were Nash.

Ya I know it’s coming…just think it might make building a contender around him difficult. Could turn into a Beal with the Wizards situation.

Yeah. Agreed. Great goal, don’t be the Wizards!

[Split T]

Ok, looking at the teams that have cap space to make a S&T happen, we’ve got Detroit, Indy, SA, or Orlando….what would trades look like with them?

Detroit could be something like Isaiah Stewart, Hamidou Diallo and #5. Maybe you can do Bey and #5.

Indy would be Turner and #6

SA would be like Poeltl and #9…I think I’d need Primo or Keldon Johnson but doubt SA does that. Maybe no #9 and just Poeltl and Johnson?

Orlando would be like WCJ and Anthony. They wouldn’t just give us the #1 pick, right? I’d take Jabari straight up without question.


None of those really seem great unless you love someone in the 5/6 range of the draft. Gonna be a very interesting off-season.