Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[Drewsprocket]

You mean like Booker being trapped in games 6 and 7 vs. the Mavs? Does that mean Booker needs to be our #3?

Look, it seems like >99% of this board thinks of Ayton as a borderline top 5 center, me included.

The one centers clearly better no matter who you ask are Embiid and Jokic.

Most will put KAT above him.

Non-Suns fans would likely have Gobert neck and neck with Ayton.

But nobody would put Ayton as a top 20 player in the league, while everyone would have Embiid and Jokic there. You need top 20 players to make noise in the playoffs. Right now the Suns only have 1 top 20 player. And Paul has been a top 20 4th quarter player all season except for his last 5 games (I know, a huge caveat).

We need another top 20 player, and I am willing to trade nearly anyone to get it. And I would trade ANYONE if it makes it more likely for us to get another player in that class.

Sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But let's try to do it without trading Booker, Paul, or Ayton.

How do you get that with a maxed out Ayton? Name a top 20 player gettable without giving up Ayton.

Why mention “maxed out Ayton”? The cap doesn’t matter if you’re making a trade. You trade enough salary to take back the salary of the top 20 star.

Now is there a top 20 player that’s “gettable”? If a star really wants out, and you give up some combination of Johnson/Bridges/expirings plus 1st round draft picks, then maybe.

Why? Because who will want to give up a top 20 player knowing you can have both Bridges and Ayton?
Will top 20 players become cheaper for us? I just want to know which rosterbation idea I can put in my spankbank. Lol.

[JeremyG]

Look, it seems like >99% of this board thinks of Ayton as a borderline top 5 center, me included.

The one centers clearly better no matter who you ask are Embiid and Jokic.

Most will put KAT above him.

Non-Suns fans would likely have Gobert neck and neck with Ayton.

But nobody would put Ayton as a top 20 player in the league, while everyone would have Embiid and Jokic there. You need top 20 players to make noise in the playoffs. Right now the Suns only have 1 top 20 player. And Paul has been a top 20 4th quarter player all season except for his last 5 games (I know, a huge caveat).

We need another top 20 player, and I am willing to trade nearly anyone to get it. And I would trade ANYONE if it makes it more likely for us to get another player in that class.

Sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But let's try to do it without trading Booker, Paul, or Ayton.

How do you get that with a maxed out Ayton? Name a top 20 player gettable without giving up Ayton.

Why mention “maxed out Ayton”? The cap doesn’t matter if you’re making a trade. You trade enough salary to take back the salary of the top 20 star.

Now is there a top 20 player that’s “gettable”? If a star really wants out, and you give up some combination of Johnson/Bridges/expirings plus 1st round draft picks, then maybe.

Because it matters. Spending 100M a year on Booker/Paul/Ayton means you don't have much space left to add people. And top 20 players are expensive. So keeping Ayton at a max, then adding 30-40M in salary for one guy, now means you have to make room for 60-70M instead. And then it means you are paying penalties to keep every player on the roster. So the guys with the big penalties need to be worth it.

It’s not my money to worry about. Sarver either wants to win at all costs or not.

[Indy]

Sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But let's try to do it without trading Booker, Paul, or Ayton.

How do you get that with a maxed out Ayton? Name a top 20 player gettable without giving up Ayton.

Why mention “maxed out Ayton”? The cap doesn’t matter if you’re making a trade. You trade enough salary to take back the salary of the top 20 star.

Now is there a top 20 player that’s “gettable”? If a star really wants out, and you give up some combination of Johnson/Bridges/expirings plus 1st round draft picks, then maybe.

Because it matters. Spending 100M a year on Booker/Paul/Ayton means you don't have much space left to add people. And top 20 players are expensive. So keeping Ayton at a max, then adding 30-40M in salary for one guy, now means you have to make room for 60-70M instead. And then it means you are paying penalties to keep every player on the roster. So the guys with the big penalties need to be worth it.

It’s not my money to worry about. Sarver either wants to win at all costs or not.

No owner wants to win at all costs. That is silly.

Sarver has said he is willing to be a tax paying team. So yay, I guess. But that tax is progressive, and he isn't going to pay $2.5 dollars in tax for every $1 he spends if we end up going into that threshold to keep Ayton as our 4th/5th best player. It would be stupid to pay our 5th best player that.

[JeremyG]

How do you get that with a maxed out Ayton? Name a top 20 player gettable without giving up Ayton.

Why mention “maxed out Ayton”? The cap doesn’t matter if you’re making a trade. You trade enough salary to take back the salary of the top 20 star.

Now is there a top 20 player that’s “gettable”? If a star really wants out, and you give up some combination of Johnson/Bridges/expirings plus 1st round draft picks, then maybe.

Because it matters. Spending 100M a year on Booker/Paul/Ayton means you don't have much space left to add people. And top 20 players are expensive. So keeping Ayton at a max, then adding 30-40M in salary for one guy, now means you have to make room for 60-70M instead. And then it means you are paying penalties to keep every player on the roster. So the guys with the big penalties need to be worth it.

It’s not my money to worry about. Sarver either wants to win at all costs or not.

No owner wants to win at all costs. That is silly.

Sarver has said he is willing to be a tax paying team. So yay, I guess. But that tax is progressive, and he isn't going to pay $2.5 dollars in tax for every $1 he spends if we end up going into that threshold to keep Ayton as our 4th/5th best player. It would be stupid to pay our 5th best player that.

How do you possibly get 5th best? You mean if we could somehow keep Bridges, too?

IMO, he would be 3rd best either way:

1. Booker or Top 20 player
2. Top 20 player or Booker
3. Ayton
4. Aging Chris Paul or Bridges (if we keep him)
5. Paul (if we keep Bridges) or whoever’s left (Johnson or Crowder?)

[Wormwood]

I admit I’m very excited about this idea, but I think it’s still very unlikely. Brooklyn has a huge incentive to keep KD.

What I'm hearing is that if Brooklyn won't pony up for Kyrie, KD will look to move on. And reports are that Brooklyn won't pay out for a guy who's been a PITA most of his time there. I also tend to believe that Flex does have a good source somewhere, and he's dropped a hint that something is afoot for a mega-star. KD certainly fits the bill.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, but I think that there's enough smoke here that the Suns are looking at the results of these playoffs, the need for more scoring and ball handling and height up front, CP3s closing window, Ayton's desire to leave, Crowder's craptacular performance and inability to deal with taller players and rebound, the future of Cam Johnson, etc...

And it all sort of suggests that yes, a play for KD is highly plausible, makes a certain amount of basketball sense, and that these rumors are more likely to be true than not: i.e. that the Suns are seriously thinking about this, and that there's a trail of breadcrumbs saying that the feeling is mutual.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/bask ... story.html


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nets ... er-report/

[Split T]

I admit I’m very excited about this idea, but I think it’s still very unlikely. Brooklyn has a huge incentive to keep KD.

What I'm hearing is that if Brooklyn won't pony up for Kyrie, KD will look to move on. And reports are that Brooklyn won't pay out for a guy who's been a PITA most of his time there. I also tend to believe that Flex does have a good source somewhere, and he's dropped a hint that something is afoot for a mega-star. KD certainly fits the bill.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, but I think that there's enough smoke here that the Suns are looking at the results of these playoffs, the need for more scoring and ball handling and height up front, CP3s closing window, Ayton's desire to leave, Crowder's craptacular performance and inability to deal with taller players and rebound, the future of Cam Johnson, etc...

And it all sort of suggests that yes, a play for KD is highly plausible, makes a certain amount of basketball sense, and that these rumors are more likely to be true than not: i.e. that the Suns are seriously thinking about this, and that there's a trail of breadcrumbs saying that the feeling is mutual.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/bask ... story.html


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nets ... er-report/

Brooklyn still has to play ball…KD is under contract for 4 more years. If Brooklyn is cool rebuilding then sure…but they may want to take advantage of having KD and try to win. Would KD be willing to go Simmons or Harden on Brooklyn?

[Drewsprocket]

I admit I’m very excited about this idea, but I think it’s still very unlikely. Brooklyn has a huge incentive to keep KD.

What I'm hearing is that if Brooklyn won't pony up for Kyrie, KD will look to move on. And reports are that Brooklyn won't pay out for a guy who's been a PITA most of his time there. I also tend to believe that Flex does have a good source somewhere, and he's dropped a hint that something is afoot for a mega-star. KD certainly fits the bill.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, but I think that there's enough smoke here that the Suns are looking at the results of these playoffs, the need for more scoring and ball handling and height up front, CP3s closing window, Ayton's desire to leave, Crowder's craptacular performance and inability to deal with taller players and rebound, the future of Cam Johnson, etc...

And it all sort of suggests that yes, a play for KD is highly plausible, makes a certain amount of basketball sense, and that these rumors are more likely to be true than not: i.e. that the Suns are seriously thinking about this, and that there's a trail of breadcrumbs saying that the feeling is mutual.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/bask ... story.html


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nets ... er-report/

Brooklyn still has to play ball…KD is under contract for 4 more years. If Brooklyn is cool rebuilding then sure…but they may want to take advantage of having KD and try to win. Would KD be willing to go Simmons or Harden on Brooklyn?

Does KD have to sign off on the deal?
Ayton and Simmons might not be best fit, but probably better than Embiid and Simmons.

[JeremyG]

Good to see I’m not the only one who thinks we have a Monty problem.

[Split T]

Do you know the difference between a self created shot and an assisted one? And why the self created ones are much more valuable?


Of course the ideal would be to get Ayton more shots, it’s not as simple as just doing it though. The defense is trying to stop that specific thing.

[JeremyG]

Do you know the difference between a self created shot and an assisted one? And why the self created ones are much more valuable?


Of course the ideal would be to get Ayton more shots, it’s not as simple as just doing it though. The defense is trying to stop that specific thing.

I will just ignore the personal insult in the first paragraph.

Monty disagrees with you. He does not consider that ideal. He doesn’t want Ayton to get more shots. That’s not how his system is built, and he refuses to adjust.

[JeremyG]

Hire Coop for GM: https://sports360az.com/2022/05/bruce-c ... t-starter/

[Split T]

Hire Coop for GM: https://sports360az.com/2022/05/bruce-c ... t-starter/

Crowder and 2 1sts for Clarkson? That’s awful…so so bad. I’d hesitate making that trade straight up without the picks.

[Split T]

Do you know the difference between a self created shot and an assisted one? And why the self created ones are much more valuable?


Of course the ideal would be to get Ayton more shots, it’s not as simple as just doing it though. The defense is trying to stop that specific thing.

I will just ignore the personal insult in the first paragraph.

Monty disagrees with you. He does not consider that ideal. He doesn’t want Ayton to get more shots. That’s not how his system is built, and he refuses to adjust.

[SunsRIt]

Do you know the difference between a self created shot and an assisted one? And why the self created ones are much more valuable?


Of course the ideal would be to get Ayton more shots, it’s not as simple as just doing it though. The defense is trying to stop that specific thing.

Like Ayton said, he can’t even pass himself the ball. He isn’t being used enough. He gets most of his points in the first quarter when they feed him the ball. Does the opposing coach all of a sudden change tactics in the 2nd-4th quarters? Surely they study enough film to know what to expect in the first. Why wouldn’t you utilize the same defensive strategies early then? I think the Suns go to him early to “get him going” and then Monte(or Paul) goes away from him for whatever reason.

As far as the difference between self-created shots and assisted ones goes I don’t think it matters. Karl Malone and Amare Stoudemire prove that point. Malone was assisted by John Stockton, who happens to be the NBAs all-time assist leader, and it’s not even close. Why? Because he fed Malone incessantly. The same goes for Amare, he was fed by the NBA assist leader(for those years), Steve Nash, during their years together. Nash wasn’t the league MVP those years by himself. Amare had a whole lot to do with it.

I know this sounds crazy, but Ayton and Amare are becoming very similar. When they came into the league neither had a midrange game, but both developed them. If Ayton misses from 15 feet and in lately I am surprised. The same went for Amare. Sure, Ayton is more of finesse player and Amare was all power around the hoop, but both get the job done and got better as time went on. Rebounding is another story, Ayton is a much better rebounder.

[Drewsprocket]

AySTANs are alright by me. I think a little banter is good. JeremyG, I am curious to hear your thoughts on why you think Monty is the problem?
He seems like a very pragmatic and loved coach that gets his guys to play well. In my view he gave Ayton a role that enabled him to be one of the best Centers in the league by helping to teach him to defend. Especially in a time where bigs get played off the floor. Ayton’s offense took some sacrifice, wherein there’s no way we were gonna dump the ball in the post to him for tons of shots.
I do think Ayton has room to grow offensively, develop a stronger go to elbow game, continue to handle the ball better to get to his hook.

[Drewsprocket]

Do you know the difference between a self created shot and an assisted one? And why the self created ones are much more valuable?


Of course the ideal would be to get Ayton more shots, it’s not as simple as just doing it though. The defense is trying to stop that specific thing.

Like Ayton said, he can’t even pass himself the ball. He isn’t being used enough. He gets most of his points in the first quarter when they feed him the ball. Does the opposing coach all of a sudden change tactics in the 2nd-4th quarters? Surely they study enough film to know what to expect in the first. Why wouldn’t you utilize the same defensive strategies early then? I think the Suns go to him early to “get him going” and then Monte(or Paul) goes away from him for whatever reason.

As far as the difference between self-created shots and assisted ones goes I don’t think it matters. Karl Malone and Amare Stoudemire prove that point. Malone was assisted by John Stockton, who happens to be the NBAs all-time assist leader, and it’s not even close. Why? Because he fed Malone incessantly. The same goes for Amare, he was fed by the NBA assist leader(for those years), Steve Nash, during their years together. Nash wasn’t the league MVP those years by himself. Amare had a whole lot to do with it.

I know this sounds crazy, but Ayton and Amare are becoming very similar. When they came into the league neither had a midrange game, but both developed them. If Ayton misses from 15 feet and in lately I am surprised. The same went for Amare. Sure, Ayton is more of finesse player and Amare was all power around the hoop, but both get the job done and got better as time went on. Rebounding is another story, Ayton is a much better rebounder.

Amare had the best hands in the NBA and was a top finisher.

[Split T]

Amare and Malone both attacked the rim with force. They caught the ball on the roll and went strong at the rim. Ayton catches it and stops to look around and if any player is in his way, even if they are 6’3, he won’t attack the rim. He sometimes shoots, but he often passes. He also often drops the pass or isn’t looking for it, though he admittedly got better at that this year.


Also I just checked, guess how many players and which players got more touches than Ayton per game from the elbow in? So this would include elbow touches, paint touches, and post touches.

He’s 5th:

Jokic is 1st at 26.6 touches
Sabonis is 2nd at 22.1
Allen is 3rd at 20.3
Embiid is 4th at 19.9
Ayton is 5th at 18.6

[JeremyG]

By the way, as far as shot creation, here’s a list of players with a lower percentage of unassisted FG than Ayton this season:

Mikal Bridges
Landry Shamet
Cameron Johnson
Jae Crowder

Maybe part of the problem is that we have some of the worst guards and wings at creating their own shots in the entire NBA?

[Split T]

By the way, as far as shot creation, here’s a list of players with a lower percentage of unassisted FG than Ayton this season:

Mikal Bridges
Landry Shamet
Cameron Johnson
Jae Crowder

Maybe part of the problem is that we have some of the worst guards and wings at creating their own shots in the entire NBA?

Fair point…that was clearly an issue against Dallas and is why we need a 3rd creator. Neither Bridges, Johnson, or Ayton seems to be that guy.

[JeremyG]

By the way, as far as shot creation, here’s a list of players with a lower percentage of unassisted FG than Ayton this season:

Mikal Bridges
Landry Shamet
Cameron Johnson
Jae Crowder

Maybe part of the problem is that we have some of the worst guards and wings at creating their own shots in the entire NBA?

Fair point…that was clearly an issue against Dallas and is why we need a 3rd creator. Neither Bridges, Johnson, or Ayton seems to be that guy.

But again my argument is that part of it is Monty’s system. Monty himself even admitted that he did not do a good job of giving them opportunities for creating or developing their shot creation abilities, and I would extend that to Ayton as well: