Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

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sunshoopjunky
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by sunshoopjunky »

Vladimir_Taltos wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:31 pm
On DA, the telling stat for me...for FT attempts per game for the NBA this season, our starting center ranked...100!

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player ... -attempted

...that's just f'd up...
VT
You want to really see something interesting his dunk attempts have gone down over the last 4 years not up. Also, check how many of his points are assisted.

I would not have minded giving him max salary last year. I just felt that it should have contained bonuses for dunk attempts and FTA to get him there.

His hands have gotten better but I have given up on his ability to get his own basket and his ability to get other big men into foul trouble. I think a max Center in today's NBA needs to be able to do that.
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:57 pm
Hell no dude

Wood is a cancer and don’t nobody care about no third pick
I'm not a Christian Wood fan at all.

But everyone cares about the third pick and it has more value across the league than Ayton does right now.
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Split T
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Split T »

Ya I think Houston would say no if it was just for #3 alone

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specialsauce
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by specialsauce »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:40 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:24 pm
I have said numerous times I don't want him gone. I would love to have him here on a contract that pays him around 25M/year. But he has said he only wants a max deal and doesn't care who gives it to him.
He’s going to get the max. So you either want him gone or you are willing to give it to him. You’re dancing instead of answering the question
The man won’t answer because he has no actual ideas only throws stones from his tower!

Again, if you’re not wanting to max DA, and you say that we need to make it so cP3 is not our second best player, then what exactly is that outcome? No deflecting.

….or am I going to get another response without an actual answer

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Split T
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Split T »

KD, KAT, and Siakam would all accomplish that

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virtual9mm
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by virtual9mm »

Vladimir_Taltos wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:37 pm
Houston...3, 17, Wood for Deandre + tbd?
You know I like Wood...as a COMPLEMENT for Ayton. Stick Ayton and Wood in the same lineup and I guarantee you wouldn't have teams game planning for Ayton by playing 5 out and attacking the middle (instead of playing 5 out and attacking the center from the perimeter).

Wood for Cam Johnson and Cam Payne? Plus draft assets from our end?

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virtual9mm
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by virtual9mm »

Cone to think of it...a Wood-Saric front line would also work.

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virtual9mm
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by virtual9mm »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:21 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:40 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:24 pm
I have said numerous times I don't want him gone. I would love to have him here on a contract that pays him around 25M/year. But he has said he only wants a max deal and doesn't care who gives it to him.
He’s going to get the max. So you either want him gone or you are willing to give it to him. You’re dancing instead of answering the question
The man won’t answer because he has no actual ideas only throws stones from his tower!

Again, if you’re not wanting to max DA, and you say that we need to make it so cP3 is not our second best player, then what exactly is that outcome? No deflecting.

….or am I going to get another response without an actual answer
I really don't understand why there is all this infighting, beyond that we are all hurt. See if there is a good S&T available, like something that is commensurate with Ayton's considerable value. If not, just have Ayton bring in a contract and match it, trade kickers and all. Trade him if appropriate once BYC is done, keep him if appropriate. We don't need to take any garbage deals just to get one done.

Personally, I would keep Ayton and trade the Cams and every expiring contract we have for LeBron. Durant would be even better. Both seem to he forcing their way out the door.

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specialsauce
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:41 pm
KD, KAT, and Siakam would all accomplish that
I don’t love KAT. I’d take any of them. Contracts wouldn’t work in a straight S&T. Would have to get creative

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specialsauce
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by specialsauce »

virtual9mm wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:55 pm
Cone to think of it...a Wood-Saric front line would also work.
Wood has a horrible attitude

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ShelC
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by ShelC »

If Ayton would just start attacking the basket off the dribble from the high post every now and then, he’d get his scoring opportunities. The one area I think the suns could have tried to use him more was in the short roll. There was a few times where we gave it to him and he made things happen. He’s just often too slow to make the play. He’ll catch and freeze…but when he’s caught and just gone, he showed me some stuff.

Truth is he’s just not a .5 guy unless he’s catching in the paint or is set from midrange. If he catches on the move outside of the paint, he doesn’t keep the ball moving and doesn’t attack. There’s a reason we kept bringing back a guy like Frank, that’s a role Frank shines in and I think Monty would like his big to be able to do that. They even specifically said they thought that’s what they were getting in Jalen. Thought he was a Jerami Grant like player.
I don't think it's fair to ask a player to do something they're not comfortable or good at, and then when they don't/won't/can't do it, hold it against them. DA is not a face-up, attack-off-the-dribble big. He never will be, that's not his game. He's a classic, low post, back-to-the-basket big who's also gotten better at facing up. But he's not AD, KAT, or Giannis so it's not as easy as saying "If he would only...". We need to stop expecting that kind of offense from. I don't know why fans are fixated on that aspect of his game. Would you complain about Shaq or Ewing or DHow not being able to take their guy off the dribble from the 3pt line? Is that a stable of Embiid's game? TimD did it every now and then, but his bread and butter was getting to his spot on the block and working from there.

We know DA can shoot 70-80% in the paint on post ups, bunnies, short roll shots and dumpoffs/lobs/PnR finishes. If that's not what the Suns are looking for or want to spend $30mil a year on, that's their decision. Just like it was the Suns' decision to move on from Stix because he wasn't the face-up 4 they envisioned - even tho he's proven to be a pretty good 5.

I understand we run the .5 offense and why Monty likes guys like Dario and Frank. I get that DA isn't that kind of frontcourt player, but I'd rather us find some happy medium where DA is screening and rolling as well as getting legit post up opportunities where he can either score easily or kick out to shooters. It doesn't need to be either/or. It doesn't need to be MikeD's 7SOL or Porter's Shaq-centric offense. I think we work very hard on the perimeter to generate shots when we could probably get easy looks on kickouts from DA if we post enough and teams are forced to double, especially when we have a clear advantage in the paint.

So, do we take advantage of what these guys do best or are we focusing too heavily on what they aren't?

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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by wpmiller42 »

I don't think we're asking DA to take people off the dribble. But there's been a ton of times where he's caught the ball at the elbow or the top of the key, and if he just took a dribble or two, he'd be at the rim. Sometimes that's not even much defense on him in these situations.

That being said, he's young and this is where his game can appreciably grow if he puts the work in.

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Split T
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Split T »

ShelC wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:56 am
If Ayton would just start attacking the basket off the dribble from the high post every now and then, he’d get his scoring opportunities. The one area I think the suns could have tried to use him more was in the short roll. There was a few times where we gave it to him and he made things happen. He’s just often too slow to make the play. He’ll catch and freeze…but when he’s caught and just gone, he showed me some stuff.

Truth is he’s just not a .5 guy unless he’s catching in the paint or is set from midrange. If he catches on the move outside of the paint, he doesn’t keep the ball moving and doesn’t attack. There’s a reason we kept bringing back a guy like Frank, that’s a role Frank shines in and I think Monty would like his big to be able to do that. They even specifically said they thought that’s what they were getting in Jalen. Thought he was a Jerami Grant like player.
I don't think it's fair to ask a player to do something they're not comfortable or good at, and then when they don't/won't/can't do it, hold it against them. DA is not a face-up, attack-off-the-dribble big. He never will be, that's not his game. He's a classic, low post, back-to-the-basket big who's also gotten better at facing up. But he's not AD, KAT, or Giannis so it's not as easy as saying "If he would only...". We need to stop expecting that kind of offense from. I don't know why fans are fixated on that aspect of his game. Would you complain about Shaq or Ewing or DHow not being able to take their guy off the dribble from the 3pt line? Is that a stable of Embiid's game? TimD did it every now and then, but his bread and butter was getting to his spot on the block and working from there.

We know DA can shoot 70-80% in the paint on post ups, bunnies, short roll shots and dumpoffs/lobs/PnR finishes. If that's not what the Suns are looking for or want to spend $30mil a year on, that's their decision. Just like it was the Suns' decision to move on from Stix because he wasn't the face-up 4 they envisioned - even tho he's proven to be a pretty good 5.

I understand we run the .5 offense and why Monty likes guys like Dario and Frank. I get that DA isn't that kind of frontcourt player, but I'd rather us find some happy medium where DA is screening and rolling as well as getting legit post up opportunities where he can either score easily or kick out to shooters. It doesn't need to be either/or. It doesn't need to be MikeD's 7SOL or Porter's Shaq-centric offense. I think we work very hard on the perimeter to generate shots when we could probably get easy looks on kickouts from DA if we post enough and teams are forced to double, especially when we have a clear advantage in the paint.

So, do we take advantage of what these guys do best or are we focusing too heavily on what they aren't?
You make good points and I mostly agree with you. We shouldn’t make Ayton be something he’s not if he doesn’t want to. But I also don’t think we should pay him the max if he doesn’t fit the offense we want to run. Post up offense has proven to be one of the more inefficient things you can do, there’s a reason the nba as a whole went away from it.

Maybe Ayton is one of the very few that can be efficient at it, but I’m not gonna pay him the max to find out. From what I’ve seen, Ayton doesn’t like to fight for position with the ball. If he doesn’t establish position first, he’s going to pass it out or take his baseline turnaround jumper. Everything he does is just about avoiding fouls and avoiding the defense. Defenses can kind of dictate what he does and that’s a problem. A max player should dictate what the defense does. Embiid forces you to double him because he’s so powerful and aggressive attacking the rim.

Ayton is a finesse low-post big…I’m just not sure we’ve ever seen that as a high level player and I’m not sure how it would work. If his contact aversion is who he is, he’s much better off adding off the dribble skills. That’s why we talk about it often, he’d turn into the perfect big man for us if he could dribble and short roll play make. But I understand it’s not who he is, that’s why I think we should trade him. Well that and I don’t believe he loves basketball. At the least, he’s no basketball sicko like Paul, Booker, Bridges, and Crowder.

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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Drewsprocket »

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing (or a less focused Mourning?) in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.
Last edited by Drewsprocket on Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Split T
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Split T »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:45 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:41 pm
KD, KAT, and Siakam would all accomplish that
I don’t love KAT. I’d take any of them. Contracts wouldn’t work in a straight S&T. Would have to get creative
Ya and they all seem pretty unlikely. KD would require Mikal being involved and that would be a tough pill to swallow.

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Split T
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Split T »

Drewsprocket wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:46 am
…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.
More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by virtual9mm »

Split T wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:52 am
Drewsprocket wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:46 am
…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.
More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.
Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Drewsprocket »

DA has no comparison then. Dude is literally gonna go play for Detroit or Booklyn just to avg 20ppg and absolutely gonna be a turnover machine just to do so.

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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Superbone »

The Ayton solution is a tricky one based on how much money he's going to earn. We either have to adjust our offense to fit him better or move him for pieces and hope the sum of the parts makes us a better team. Or just keep doing what we're doing and hope we get better at it and get the right complementary pieces.
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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread

Post by Mori Chu »

Ayton is getting a lot of grief in this thread. And look, he's no angel; there's no Halo above his head. But whenever we have asked him to produce, he always answers the Call of Duty. I don't have a Portal into his mind, and I know he can really Madden us with his lack of focus. But from the first to The Last of Us, I think we can all agree that he's got talent, even though he doesn't have a lot of WoW plays. His effort out there seems partly dead, but even his Half Life is better than many other centers' full effort. He's not a true classical big man, but these days the NBA is something of a Little Big Planet where shooting centers are more common. We could tell him to bulk up, but I worry about whether the extra Mass Effect would make him slower on defense. Even though our season is Over,Watch the Finals to see how we should have used Ayton. If we trade him for spare parts, we'll be in Uncharted territory as a franchise. Some of you seem to think you have a Golden Eye for spotting good trades, but I'm skeptical; a lot of these trade proposals seem Unreal to me. Some of you must have Dark Souls to suggest some of these moves; I don't think our cap situation is a Crysis. I think we should just sign him to the max, though we don't want to overpay our backup PG and Max Payne. If we keep our core together, we'll be the Perfect Dark horse contender next season. Losing Ayton would be like an earth Quake to the city of Phoenix. You just don't mess Witcher team when you're this close to the title.

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