All Things Ayton

[virtual9mm]

I don’t want Trae…I don’t think I’d even target a big. I’d go after wings and shooters. If it’s a big that can shoot, I’ll take it. But ya we do need to move on, that seems pretty clear. Best for both parties.

We’ll see on CP3, but think we gotta move on from him too. If he’s waive the non-guaranteed portion of his contract I’d let him hang around 1 more year, but we need a new pg.

Why would you not want a point guard who has proven he could play at a superstar level at times when we have a 38 year old at that position? And you want MORE wings?

[virtual9mm]

A few Ayton trades I cobbled up because I think he would welcome a change of scenery too, especially if the Suns don't advance far.

Atlanta:
CP3 and Ayton for Capela, Bogdan and salary filler
Capela can replace a lot of what Ayton does at 60% of the cost, Bogdan could be nice off the bench, health permitting of course.

Dallas:
Ayton and CP3 for a re-signed Kyrie (yep, I went there), THJ and Kleber
Stretch big, scoring wing off the bench, and massive upgrade at PG.

Cleveland:
Ayton for Jarret Allen and RUBIO
Doubt Cleveland does this, but you never know. I think the Suns need a defensive minded PG who won't mind taking a backseat to Book and KD.

At this point, CP3 has value only as a partially guaranteed contract, or a huge expiring contract for next year.

Maybe the Cleveland one but I would want another asset back.

[JeremyG]

At least Monty gets it better than most people on here.

[JeremyG]

I supported re-signing him as an asset and giving him a chance. But he's a waste of a max contract and we should get rid of him. I'd take minimal return so long as it freed up salary, or hopefully at least one usable wing or big back.

Okay this is just getting silly now.

You guys are totally missing how valuable a player like Ayton is to this team. Just to mention one aspect of Ayton’s value that was noticeable last night: since when does a center like Looney or others mentioned in this thread create gravity or draw a bunch of defenders into the paint, opening up the floor for his teammates?

Um he creates nothing for his teammates... KD, Booker and Paul do just fine without him. SMH.

I’m talking about off-ball gravity in particular.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

Hopefully they keep it simple and revisit that Ayton - Siakam swap. Both teams are ready to let go and it just make to much sense, as both teams adjust their timeline Bigs. Send them Shame-t as a salary dump, bring on board a couple Ring chasers vets (defensive guard and creative wing) at the min and call it a day.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Why would Raptors trade their all-star for a max salary role player?

Poeltl, on the other hand, wouldn’t be all that surprising, but a lot depends on the direction they choose with their new coach.

[virtual9mm]

Why would Raptors trade their all-star for a max salary role player?

Poeltl, on the other hand, wouldn’t be all that surprising, but a lot depends on the direction they choose with their new coach.

Still doesn't make any sense to do this unless you're calling Ayton something akin to a bust. What does this accomplish except for getting rid of Ayton so you can find another punching bag.

Trae Young I would take

[Flagrant Fowl]

The bust stuff is irrelevant and a waste of time. He's been in the league for 5 seasons. It's time to move on from that discussion.

A Poeltl type trade makes sense because the marginal decline in production (if any at all) from Ayton to Poeltl is significantly offset by the reduction in salary cap allotment. Almost everyone who has an issue with Ayton on the Suns is frustrated with him being overpaid more than anything else and I don't understand why it keeps being overlooked or forgotten.

Coincidently, Trae Young is one of the handful of guys I think has an even worse contract that Ayton. He's so easy to game plan against in a playoff series and hasn't really improved since being paid, kind of like Ayton.

[England Sun]

Glad people caught on to at least two of the horse metaphors.
The blinkers are for JeremyG, I’m sure you are lovely in real life. But your blindness to all things Ayton and his weakness and drain on the team for his salary is astounding.

Even in the face of very balanced argument and explanation from many more experienced and one would say sound posters, you remain belligerent in your stance. And you are happy to reopen this thread if he has, even in part, a slightly average game for a max player. Baffling.

The other, Sup got nice and early. Such a dead horse discussion to flog once JG is involved.
Can’t wait until he’s traded.

I do Hope he helps bring a championship and keeps Jokic quiet and performs in the WCF and NBA finals, but on season and current evidence that’s a stretch.

The third metaphor covers what’s spouted by some here and its relation to fertiliser.

[Mori Chu]

Ayton doesn't "create gravity." Quite the opposite. He needs others like CP3 or KD to create gravity for him, so he can receive an open pass near the basket. I almost never see Ayton catch the ball and draw any double-team or other defenders. The other teams pretty quickly figure out that he's not a player you need to emphasize your defense around, and they guard him accordingly. Sure, sometimes Ayton has nice offensive games, giving you 18-20 points on high-percentage shooting. That isn't nothing. But it's rare, and it usually comes from the fact that the other team is spending its energy guarding other players like Book, KD, and CP3.

[JeremyG]

Ayton doesn't "create gravity." Quite the opposite. He needs others like CP3 or KD to create gravity for him, so he can receive an open pass near the basket. I almost never see Ayton catch the ball and draw any double-team or other defenders. The other teams pretty quickly figure out that he's not a player you need to emphasize your defense around, and they guard him accordingly. Sure, sometimes Ayton has nice offensive games, giving you 18-20 points on high-percentage shooting. That isn't nothing. But it's rare, and it usually comes from the fact that the other team is spending its energy guarding other players like Book, KD, and CP3.

18-20 points is rare? He literally averaged 18 points over the entire season!

Again, I was talking about off-ball gravity in particular, not once he catches the ball (although yes he’s doubled frequently when catching it in the paint or on the low block—in fact sometimes this is what leads to him getting stripped that you all like to complain about!). Again, I have to say you guys aren’t watching the games closely enough. Just rewatch last game. He draws multiple defenders into the paint without even having the ball in his hands, and the opposing team certainly can’t help off of him and leave him alone like they do with other centers.

Even Split acknowledged it during their smallball lineup in the 4th last game:

Ayton isn’t getting any direct points, but I think his impact is there. Paul waltzed to the rim because two guys wouldn’t leave him there.

[JeremyG]

The bust stuff is irrelevant and a waste of time. He's been in the league for 5 seasons. It's time to move on from that discussion.

A Poeltl type trade makes sense because the marginal decline in production (if any at all) from Ayton to Poeltl is significantly offset by the reduction in salary cap allotment. Almost everyone who has an issue with Ayton on the Suns is frustrated with him being overpaid more than anything else and I don't understand why it keeps being overlooked or forgotten.

Because it’s Mat’s money not yours. Why should you care? Wiggins’ max contract didn’t prevent the Warriors from winning a championship did it?

[JeremyG]

Glad people caught on to at least two of the horse metaphors.
The blinkers are for JeremyG, I’m sure you are lovely in real life. But your blindness to all things Ayton and his weakness and drain on the team for his salary is astounding.

Even in the face of very balanced argument and explanation from many more experienced and one would say sound posters, you remain belligerent in your stance. And you are happy to reopen this thread if he has, even in part, a slightly average game for a max player. Baffling.

Lol, I’ve been posting about the Suns since 1999 on the old AZCentral boards. I doubt most have more than 24 years of posting experience, but okay..?

[Superbone]

The bust stuff is irrelevant and a waste of time. He's been in the league for 5 seasons. It's time to move on from that discussion.

A Poeltl type trade makes sense because the marginal decline in production (if any at all) from Ayton to Poeltl is significantly offset by the reduction in salary cap allotment. Almost everyone who has an issue with Ayton on the Suns is frustrated with him being overpaid more than anything else and I don't understand why it keeps being overlooked or forgotten.

Because it’s Mat’s money not yours. Why should you care? Wiggins’ max contract didn’t prevent the Warriors from winning a championship did it?

That's a good point if it weren't for the fact that it takes away money for other potential players that can help.

[Split T]

Especially with the new rules coming into play soon. Can’t just say it’s not my money anymore. There are serious restrictions to going over the 2nd Apron. Enough that it is essentially a hard cap.

[TOO]

The bust stuff is irrelevant and a waste of time. He's been in the league for 5 seasons. It's time to move on from that discussion.

A Poeltl type trade makes sense because the marginal decline in production (if any at all) from Ayton to Poeltl is significantly offset by the reduction in salary cap allotment. Almost everyone who has an issue with Ayton on the Suns is frustrated with him being overpaid more than anything else and I don't understand why it keeps being overlooked or forgotten.

Because it’s Mat’s money not yours. Why should you care? Wiggins’ max contract didn’t prevent the Warriors from winning a championship did it?

Woof. What a terrible argument. Wiggins was incredible in the finals against the Celtics wings. Ayton is basically our T-Wolves Wiggins, get a max deal and probably have to blossom elsewhere. Having said that, the new cap rules and lack of draft capital will make it even more essential that the money is well spent. Ayton is a waste of money for his production, using his money to lengthen the roster would be a much better use of what is being spent.

[JeremyG]

We can very easily stay under the second apron next season, and CP3 is not going to be around much longer. I'm glad you guys aren't in the front office because I'm confident Ishbia and Jones will not make a panic move to dump DA this offseason.

[Split T]

We can very easily stay under the second apron next season, and CP3 is not going to be around much longer. I'm glad you guys aren't in the front office because I'm confident Ishbia and Jones will not make a panic move to dump DA this offseason.

I think it’s more about not having avenues to improve the team. I don’t think the 2nd apron thing goes into effect next year anyways.

If we just keep the big 4, our only ways to improve are to sign someone with the TPMLE and vet min deals. We could try and trade Shamet/Payne, but not sure that gets us much.

CP3’s only trade value is that he can be cut and only part of his salary is guaranteed. So we could take on like 30 million in salary and the other team would only be on the hook for 15 million, which they could stretch over 5 years and only be on the hook for 3 million a year.

We could just waive and stretch CP3 ourselves which might actually get us into position to use the full MLE and BAE. I’m honestly pretty open to that idea.

The only other option is to move Ayton. He might actually still have some value.

So we either run back the same team with one new guy(TPMLE) and maybe some shuffling of the vet min guys, or we move one of Ayton/CP3.

I’m honestly on board with moving both. If you could do my proposed Ayton for Vassell/McDermott/Graham(which I think Spurs would say no to) and then waive and stretch CP3. Use the MLE on Naz Reid, bring back Craig. BAE on Schroeder, Milton, Curry, or whatever PG you can get.

Payne/Booker/Vassell/KD/Reid
Milton/Okogie/Craig/McDermott/Biyombo
Graham/Shamet/2nd rounder/Ish/Jock

I could get behind that.

[Flagrant Fowl]

If we're gonna winge over Ayton's sleepwalking stinkers, we gotta give him praise when he plays well like he did in Game 4. He'd be earning his salary if he played like this 80% of the time.

Obviously it wasn't a perfect game, but he was much better on a lot of the stuff that I usually complain about. He was very active in the paint, put pressure on the rim, and even dribbled the ball with purpose! Give him a hand! (oops, he dropped it )

[Split T]

Ya I was very pleased with his game tonight