carey wrote:My take right now is this, there's been a chemistry issue this year and it's starting to look like that issue was Goran Dragic.
A theory well-fueled by the always reputable RealGM insiders.
Anyways, we'll see what happens once Dragic is traded. That should tell us a lot.
First post here - a shame it has to be under such dire circumstances. But before I say what I say, I gotta prelude by also saying that I used to lurk here years and years ago and it was probably my favourite board even though I couldn't post here; I never knew how to sign up (!) so thought it was an exclusive invite only board or something. Then i thought the place got closed down - phxsuns.net no longer exists - so to be posting here for the first time in 2015..let's just say I'm feeling pretty stoked right now
So whatsup all, and onto my piece..
I pinned the blame for this thing more or less on RMcD (with some help from Bledsoe, Orlando, Horny etc) but, like any argument, it's usually both sides that come out looking pretty bad. Using the playground defence on behalf of Dragic, i think it's safe to say that RMcD started it.
Interesting point though about Dragic being behind the chemistry issues which, from what I can gather, stems from there being a dust up between Dragic and IT, where upstanding gentleman that he is, Morris (not sure which one), stepped in to separate the two; it sounds like a chunk of the team subsequently sided with IT.
Could Dragic's reaction yesterday - looking like a pretty poor one as we speak - therefore not only be a function of RMcD's stupid acquisition of IT that killed our goodwill but, also, a case of feeling bullied? A corrupt culture where bullying pervades would fit in with both the high number of tech's this team has, McMorris's outrageous tongue lashing of the coach in public and an 'out of character (is that fair?) public lash out' from Dragic.
It's just a hunch as Dragic seems like one of those guys who has all the skills but isn't so confident personally (not a bad thing) and big egos and attitudes - particularly the ones you might think Morrisx2, Thomas and maybe Bledsoe might possess - could easily, collectively, get on top of him.
This one is ugly however it pans out.
Welcome - I've been reading over at RealGM. If you're gonna post here, this kind of stuff below won't fly:
No one has a problem with opinion but when you argue against concrete laws then either you're stupid, ignorant, ignorantly arrogant or all three. Or a flamer - I'll go with the last one.
I'll believe it when I see it. Everything he's done to me just seems to lead to that conclusion, why else would you be worried about your own stats in a contract year?
But according to a person with knowledge of his situation, the fifth year is not a factor for Dragic as he weighs his uncertain future. Dragic has been smart with his money, it seems, and the allure of the extra guaranteed year is not expected to have any sway on his free agency decision. The person spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.
Dragic appears far more concerned with the fit with his future team, about being on a playoff contender or — in the cases of the Lakers and Knicks — about helping one of the league's flagship franchises get back on its feet. The tricky part, of course, is that the teams on Dragic's list don't appear to have the kinds of assets (promising young player and a first-round pick) that the Suns want, while some teams that are not on his list clearly do.
This still doesn't explain all the hard feelings from Dragic, the sense of betrayal, the fact that he'd rather play in the triangle offense which will bury his gifts beyond all visible impact or with the Lakers for the highest-volume shooting guard of all time in Kobe Bryant. It doesn't explain why Dragic's team leaked his preferred locations or the results of the meeting, effectively scuttling the Suns' leverage. (OK, some of that you can guess why it went down, but it's not known for sure).
And it doesn't explain why Phoenix is still broadcasting that they want to make a run at trading Isaiah Thomas and convince Dragic to stay no matter how poisoned the well may seem.
The Suns seem to be dealing with an untenable situation with Dragic, one that's sure to test their organizational resolve. Perhaps the most remarkable perspective on all this is that 18 months ago, the Suns were expected to be a bottom-feeding rebuilding team. Instead, they found themselves chasing a playoff spot last year and entered the All-Star Break in pole position for one this season. Yet Thursday could bring changes that dramatically alter their franchise course.
lol, because the front office called dragic's camp to guage their interest in remaining a sun. judging from the timing, seems like it's: commit to us now (so we can safely trade IT), or we will do what's in our best interest to salvage this situation. we wont let you walk away for nothing.
I'll believe it when I see it. Everything he's done to me just seems to lead to that conclusion, why else would you be worried about your own stats in a contract year?
But according to a person with knowledge of his situation, the fifth year is not a factor for Dragic as he weighs his uncertain future. Dragic has been smart with his money, it seems, and the allure of the extra guaranteed year is not expected to have any sway on his free agency decision. The person spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.
Dragic appears far more concerned with the fit with his future team, about being on a playoff contender or — in the cases of the Lakers and Knicks — about helping one of the league's flagship franchises get back on its feet. The tricky part, of course, is that the teams on Dragic's list don't appear to have the kinds of assets (promising young player and a first-round pick) that the Suns want, while some teams that are not on his list clearly do.
I'll believe it when I see it. Everything he's done to me just seems to lead to that conclusion, why else would you be worried about your own stats in a contract year?
But according to a person with knowledge of his situation, the fifth year is not a factor for Dragic as he weighs his uncertain future. Dragic has been smart with his money, it seems, and the allure of the extra guaranteed year is not expected to have any sway on his free agency decision. The person spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.
Dragic appears far more concerned with the fit with his future team, about being on a playoff contender or — in the cases of the Lakers and Knicks — about helping one of the league's flagship franchises get back on its feet. The tricky part, of course, is that the teams on Dragic's list don't appear to have the kinds of assets (promising young player and a first-round pick) that the Suns want, while some teams that are not on his list clearly do.
Thank you for posting that.
dragic's heart probably says, let's go to a contender with enough cap space to pay him a fair salary. but his agents says he needs to mention LAL, NY, MIA. hmmm...
carey wrote:My take right now is this, there's been a chemistry issue this year and it's starting to look like that issue was Goran Dragic.
A theory well-fueled by the always reputable RealGM insiders.
Anyways, we'll see what happens once Dragic is traded. That should tell us a lot.
First post here - a shame it has to be under such dire circumstances. But before I say what I say, I gotta prelude by also saying that I used to lurk here years and years ago and it was probably my favourite board even though I couldn't post here; I never knew how to sign up (!) so thought it was an exclusive invite only board or something. Then i thought the place got closed down - phxsuns.net no longer exists - so to be posting here for the first time in 2015..let's just say I'm feeling pretty stoked right now
So whatsup all, and onto my piece..
I pinned the blame for this thing more or less on RMcD (with some help from Bledsoe, Orlando, Horny etc) but, like any argument, it's usually both sides that come out looking pretty bad. Using the playground defence on behalf of Dragic, i think it's safe to say that RMcD started it.
Interesting point though about Dragic being behind the chemistry issues which, from what I can gather, stems from there being a dust up between Dragic and IT, where upstanding gentleman that he is, Morris (not sure which one), stepped in to separate the two; it sounds like a chunk of the team subsequently sided with IT.
Could Dragic's reaction yesterday - looking like a pretty poor one as we speak - therefore not only be a function of RMcD's stupid acquisition of IT that killed our goodwill but, also, a case of feeling bullied? A corrupt culture where bullying pervades would fit in with both the high number of tech's this team has, McMorris's outrageous tongue lashing of the coach in public and an 'out of character (is that fair?) public lash out' from Dragic.
It's just a hunch as Dragic seems like one of those guys who has all the skills but isn't so confident personally (not a bad thing) and big egos and attitudes - particularly the ones you might think Morrisx2, Thomas and maybe Bledsoe might possess - could easily, collectively, get on top of him.
This one is ugly however it pans out.
Welcome - I've been reading over at RealGM. If you're gonna post here, this kind of stuff below won't fly:
No one has a problem with opinion but when you argue against concrete laws then either you're stupid, ignorant, ignorantly arrogant or all three. Or a flamer - I'll go with the last one.
Woah - you're tarnishing me on the basis of what happened on Real GM?
Unfair totally.
That was in response to a clown who'd been attacking me personally even though my posts up to that point had been constructive and measured, and then called me arrogant for disagreeing with his opinion even though his opinion went against the fundamental law of Supply and Demand.
You can't argue against laws; it's why they're laws and idiots who argue otherwise deserve a rebuke.
A bit like - and forgive my forward nature considering I'm a rookie here - you might deserve a rebuke for posting what you did; tainting me using only a partial view of the facts.
Poor form.
To be clear, I joined .net to get away from guys like that and if he came here spouting his inane bullsh!t I'd be disappointed if someone didn't take him to town for it. Cause if they don't I sure as hell will.
To summarize, after all the tweets, articles and 'insider' posts:
·His relationship with the Front Office/franchise is FUBARE. Allegedly his camp did voice his displeasure to the FO before but nothing was done.
·The coach seems oblivious to the on the court struggles, or is playing dumb. I guess he wasn't dealt an ideal hand, but I also believe it is within his powers trying to make the GM understand that things don't work with so much redundancy. In other words, in exchanges with the FO he should have urged them to make moves involving one of the main PGs. Obviously until something leaks we can't know what has been Hornacek's stance on all this.
·Money (5th) year is not a main factor. I am eager to see what his next contract looks like, though.
·Role is as he doesn't want to stand in a corner watching others do their stuff. Trading away IT3 is not enough. What I wish to know is wether at one point it would have been.
·Market seems to be too. LAL/NYK/MIA are terrible right now, although it's universally expected (at least for LAL) that it won't take long before they are back on contention. But, the 'I want to run things' makes less sense with players like Melo and Wade still around, which is the reason why he has ruled out Houston. Turning down Sacto is understandable. Turning down Boston, not so much when you are looking at the current Lakers, although LAL is the Real Madrid of basketball.
·He has had chemistry issues with some members of the current roster, specifically IT3 and the twins. Supposedly gets along fine with Bledsoe.
·His brother has actually made a negative impact as he has done nothing more than warming the bench and unhappiness is infectious. Broken promises? Perhaps, but I find it hard to believe since it was obvious from day 1 that there was too much competition.
·The 'offers' the Suns have been receiving are only decent from teams that have no chance at keeping Dragic. What the Lakers have put on the table only gets them a IT3 dumping.
·He has had chemistry issues with some members of the current roster, specifically IT3 and the twins. Supposedly gets along fine with Bledsoe.
and yet, he refused the offer of mcdo trading IT to accomodate him.
and i dont believe for one second that he had "chemistry issues" with the twins.
him walking away has nothing to do with his teammates personally. sometimes, it's just not in the best interest of EVERYBODY if dragic resigns with this lottery team next season and continue the failed 3 pg model. the writing on the wall has been there since the beginning. and let's be honest here, does anybody really want to pay dragic "bledsoe money" to continue the team's same old same old direction?
Funny how he wants the ball in his hands and the chance to run his own team, yet NY is on his list where the PG is marginalized in the triangle AND he's playing with Carmelo Anthony.
And if he wants to go to the shit show called the LA Lakers, by all means. Have fun being coached by Byron Scott AND watching Kobe shoot 35 times a game.
Hell, trade him and Tucker to Miami for Deng, Cole and a future 1st. Unfortunately, Dragic and his agent have made so much noise it'll be impossible for the Suns to get fair value or work with a team with any assets.
ShelC wrote:Funny how he wants the ball in his hands and the chance to run his own team, yet NY is on his list where the PG is marginalized in the triangle AND he's playing with Carmelo Anthony.
And if he wants to go to the shit show called the LA Lakers, by all means. Have fun being coached by Byron Scott AND watching Kobe shoot 35 times a game.
Hell, trade him and Tucker to Miami for Deng, Cole and a future 1st. Unfortunately, Dragic and his agent have made so much noise it'll be impossible for the Suns to get fair value or work with a team with any assets.
The Lakers are a peach right now. Kobe won't last, and neither will Scott. Once you have gotten fed up with the your team, for one reason or another, it doesn't get any better than being the first big name recruited to usher the rebirth of the top franchise in the business, while making a ton of money. Pressure, living up to the expectations, etc would be off the charts, so it remains to be seen how greener those pastures actually are, but that's a different matter.
NYK and Miami are not even close to having that pull, but since trust in the FO seems to be a key factor here, I see how Jackson and Riley would look attractive even if their current roster doesn't.
It's so ironic how the Suns have been looking like the perfect destination for the next disgruntled star since their emergence last season, yet they are the ones losing the big name to that same lack of foresight. And even more ironic is that from a value (I am starting to really despise this word, along with 'asset') standpoint, we will probably be forced to take a pitiful package back.
Lakers might be closer but it'll still take a year for Scott and Kobe to be out. And that's a best case scenario. Then, MAYBE, they'll pull Durant or Love. And he'll be 30 at that point and still not close to contending.
No one who goes to NY ends up well. Trust this.
Miami's a best case where he can play with Bosh, do a slower rebuild and still be a 4 seed or so.
The one thing I'll knock McD for, and a lot of GMs are guilty of this now, is playing the "asset" game. They want to have a bunch of average pieces on decent contracts to flip for a star and are getting caught left holding the bag. McD should've gone all in with his vision instead of trying to ride the fence. If Bledsoe's your guy, build around him. Get rid of Dragic last season when he had value and pay Bledsoe. If Tucker and the Morris Bros aren't part of the grand plan, don't sign them to extensions and get locked into long term deals thinking you'll flip them. Who wants them now?
Last edited by ShelC on Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't see NYC working out for him either. The triangle and Melo (perhaps hobbled) should scare him off if money is equal.
About Miami, Bosh would be a great partner but as long as Wade plays, he will be like Houston with Harden. Wade is on borrowed time, but Kobe is basically done so they have a clear advantage on this front.
One could thing that the biggest incoherence if he sets his sights in LAL is that their FO is not exactly top notch, but his message has been about 'trust', not quality, winning or anything else. If LAL gives him word that he has his money (5 years, more than anyone else offers), and then under a say one year timeline they assure him that they will setup the proper environment, specifically a coach that suits him better than Scott and free agents, you are running out of reasons to refuse a move to the Lakers right now. For all the criticism the monster Kobe extension granted LAL, it also comfirms the idea that the Lakers know how to treat their own.
If I were Dragic, the only team other than the Lakers I'd look at would be the Celtics, but apparently he is not interested.
About GMs, assets, etc, I don't think Morey, Ainge, etc are behaving much more differently today than other FOs in the past when it comes to players under contract. It's just that in this times of the internet, tweeter, CBAfaq, trade machines, etc, everybody from the regular fan to the media writer, has gotten heavily into that stuff and those words are floating around much more frequently.
In the modern era of the salary cap, actual players have always been regarded as merchandise with specific rates. There's always been bad contracts, bargains for the money, untouchables, etc. From Konkac to McIlvaine to LaFrentz to Amare; it's just that today it is on 24/7 and it doesn't take time before players get hit in the face with this stuff, so their feelings get hurt (which is understandable as usually you don't want to be trated like an object, but I believe you can't pull this angle if you have used exactly the opposite approach when negotiating a contract, but that's also a different matter).
Where I do believe the conceptions have changed is regarding draft picks, for instance, but those are abstract entities that can't complain. Analytics or training methods among other things too, but that's not the point.
Personally, as the times goes by, I find myself way less concerned with value on the books (bad contracts don't irk me nearly as much as they used to) and more and more by the actual state of the game on the court, chemistry and the likes. In part it has to do with the reforms to the CBA, above all the limitation on allowed years, which forces deals to reasonable length borders, but also because I've accepted that almost everybody (with very few exceptions) in the NBA is fungible and overpaid and that if I want to keep the player it's ok to 'give' him more than what his 'value' suggest because if later I don't want him anymore, it's not hard to move contracts around as long as you are willing to lose the battle of (again) value. The key is spotting the guys who are worth keeping even at above that rate, but that's a different issue and I am digressing too much.
It's still relatively new to flip a 1st or 2nd year player with potential, an ending contract and a high pick for a superstar. That became the blueprint in the last decade or so and execs, especially ones with the task rebuilding, have molded their teams as such, almost to the extreme. It's evolved for sure recently but instead of just getting on with a rebuild, some guys are JUST acquiring assets and hoping to get lucky. To be fair tho, it's a great way to keep your job a few extra years. Keep playing the waiting game.
McD said as much last season and I'm sure he thought he had a nice package for a guy like Love until LeBron went to Cleveland. Which is the other problem...guys have to want to play where you are and you typically need other talent on the roster to convince them you can compete right away. A superstar isn't going to go to a stripped down team and wait 2-3 years to compete.
At this point it doesn't look like we are going to get much for dragic. I say we get rid of it and green to clear up some space in the backcourt and spend the 2nd half of the season trying to convince him to stay if it isn't about the money.
Welcome to all the new posters. Love the new blood and differing opinions.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
