Game Day: Suns (17-29) @ Bucks (23-22), Mon 1/22/18

[Split T]

Ya, I recently read through all those pre draft discussions. I was one of very few people who even wanted Chriss. I thought he had a lot of potential compared to the rest of the class, but I still thought he was a pretty risky pick. Most people wanted Bender but almost no one thought he'd be an all star. Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

[INFORMER]

Bender hasn’t shown anything promising but a decent 3 point shot.

He has had some moments when he has shown defensive potential. Those moments get overrated on this site, but they're still there. He has also shown above average passing ability.

[INFORMER]

Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

Besides the consensus top two picks, these guys are all trending upwards towards good to really good players:

Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield, Sabonis, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Caris Levert, Jamaal Murray, Jaylen Brown

Add to that Dejonte Murray is starting for the Spurs.

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

[Cap]

Me, pre-draft

"Who should we pick" poll thread: "Bender, mostly by default since there aren't any options I really like."
Draft thread: "I think we're split on Bender, but are we all pretty much agreed that we're not high on Chriss?"

[Split T]

Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

Besides the consensus top two picks, these guys are all trending upwards towards good to really good players:

Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield, Sabonis, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Caris Levert, Jamaal Murray, Jaylen Brown

Add to that Dejonte Murray is starting for the Spurs.

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

They all look better than Chriss and Bender, I'll give you that. But none look like all stars, they look like solid role players to quality starters.

Plus almost all those guys were older and more NBA ready.

Dunn was like 23 when drafted and I still think he's just a bigger Bledsoe

Hield was a senior, although he was actually my top choice for our pick.

Valentine was a senior as well, he was my top choice at 13

Lavert, Sabonis, and prince spent at least 2 years in college

Brown went before Bender, but I wouldn't have wanted him. I was wrong about him.

Murray has his faults, but he's much closer to a quality NBA guy than Chriss or Bender.

Would I change our picks if I could? Yes I would, but I don't think we missed out on any obvious stars. I'm still waiting to see what Chriss and Bender become. I wish they were further along, but I'm not surprised those other guys are better.

[specialsauce]

Bender hasn’t shown anything promising but a decent 3 point shot.

He has had some moments when he has shown defensive potential. Those moments get overrated on this site, but they're still there. He has also shown above average passing ability.

Oh, he’s great at passing. It’s his favorite thing to do.

[specialsauce]

Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

Besides the consensus top two picks, these guys are all trending upwards towards good to really good players:

Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield, Sabonis, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Caris Levert, Jamaal Murray, Jaylen Brown

Add to that Dejonte Murray is starting for the Spurs.

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Bingo. A smart GM would have recognized there’s nothing worth a damn at 4 and flipped it for a young NBA player or a future asset.

[Cap]

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Those "assets" being later picks in the same draft, and Bogdan. Big deal.

I don't understand why people have such issues with that trade. We may have got bupkis, but we traded bupkis. Years from now, when we list the best and worst trades in recent franchise history, this won't even register. It's as meh as meh can be.

[INFORMER]

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Those "assets" being later picks in the same draft, and Bogdan. Big deal.

I don't think it was the best use of those resources. I don't even think it was a good use of the resource. The severity of the misuse is debatable; I guess go with whatever makes you feel better.

[iLLmatic]

Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

Besides the consensus top two picks, these guys are all trending upwards towards good to really good players:

Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield, Sabonis, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Caris Levert, Jamaal Murray, Jaylen Brown

Add to that Dejonte Murray is starting for the Spurs.

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

So much to like about this comment.

[iLLmatic]

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Those "assets" being later picks in the same draft, and Bogdan. Big deal.

I don't understand why people have such issues with that trade. We may have got bupkis, but we traded bupkis. Years from now, when we list the best and worst trades in recent franchise history, this won't even register. It's as meh as meh can be.

Just another mediocre move by our mediocre GM.

[Cap]

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Those "assets" being later picks in the same draft, and Bogdan. Big deal.

I don't understand why people have such issues with that trade. We may have got bupkis, but we traded bupkis. Years from now, when we list the best and worst trades in recent franchise history, this won't even register. It's as meh as meh can be.

Just another mediocre move by our mediocre GM.

Yup.

In the Sarver era, mediocre is a blessing.

[Split T]

Neither has shown much towards being good NBA players, but there's not many players in general from that draft showing much.

Besides the consensus top two picks, these guys are all trending upwards towards good to really good players:

Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield, Sabonis, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Caris Levert, Jamaal Murray, Jaylen Brown

Add to that Dejonte Murray is starting for the Spurs.

And even if you want to give a pass by taking the stance that it was just a terrible draft, then I have a serious issue with a GM that moves assets to move up a few spots in such a "terrible" draft.

Bingo. A smart GM would have recognized there’s nothing worth a damn at 4 and flipped it for a young NBA player or a future asset.

There was a lot of talk around the draft of people wanting to trade out. I don't think there were any good offers for the 4th pick. If we knew it was a bad draft, every gm knew as well.

As for moving up, you can criticize McD for that, I think that's fair. Although I agree more with Cap. I don't feel like we really gave up much. Bogdan and a late 1st to move up 5 spots. In retrospect it's pretty uneventful and doesn't seem to have impacted either franchise all that much. Of the 4 players( Chriss, Papagiannis, skal, and Bogdon) I think I'd still rather have Chriss.

[Mori Chu]

For the record, I never wanted Chriss. I always wanted Sabonis. I think Sabonis has proven better than either of the two big men we drafted from that class.

For the past draft, I didn't want Jackson; I wanted Fox (and to trade Bledsoe). FWIW, Fox is averaging 10.5 ppg (on .405/.304/.714 shooting), 4.2 apg, and 2.6 rpg in 27 minutes/game. So he isn't great. Josh Jackson is averaging 10.1 ppg (on .400/.273/.590 shooting, ugh), 1.2 apg, and 3.6 rpg in 22 minutes/game. No clear favorite there, but I am still quite concerned about Jackson's shooting and overall NBA skillset.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4066259/deaaron-fox

[Split T]

For the record, I never wanted Chriss. I always wanted Sabonis. I think Sabonis has proven better than either of the two big men we drafted from that class.

For the past draft, I didn't want Jackson; I wanted Fox (and to trade Bledsoe). FWIW, Fox is averaging 10.5 ppg (on .405/.304/.714 shooting), 4.2 apg, and 2.6 rpg in 27 minutes/game. So he isn't great. Josh Jackson is averaging 10.1 ppg (on .400/.273/.590 shooting, ugh), 1.2 apg, and 3.6 rpg in 22 minutes/game. No clear favorite there, but I am still quite concerned about Jackson's shooting and overall NBA skillset.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4066259/deaaron-fox

Ya, most wanted Bender, a few wanted Chriss, a few wanted Sabonis, then there was a vote or two for guys like Murray, skal, and hield if I remember correctly.

In retrospect, we probably should have drafted one of the guards(hield or Murray) at 4 and drafted Sabonis at 8, or valentine if we stay at 13. Although maybe those guys don't look as good here, Sabonis didn't look great as a stretch big in OKC, but looks good as a more traditional big in Indy. Would have been interesting to see how we played him.

As for this draft. Mitchell is the only guy who obviously looks like a better pick than Jackson. Isaac has been hurt, Markkanen is really good and is definitely better right now, but I'm not upset we didn't pick him. Smith, fox, and Ntilikina fill a hole, but they've had their struggles, just like Jackson. Kuzma was never really an option and while he looks like a really nice player, I'm not convinced he's a better long term prospect than Jackson. So I'm still ok with Jackson as our pick right now. Time will tell if that holds true.

[Ring_Wanted]

Ya, most wanted Bender, a few wanted Chriss, a few wanted Sabonis, then there was a vote or two for guys like Murray, skal, and hield if I remember correctly.

I voted for Murray. And for a while, I believed Dunn could become the best player from this draft not named Simmons. Also liked Hield, plus Sabonis and Valentine for the lower pick.

I posted this back then:

Can't see Chriss that high. Only positive seems to be that he jumps a lot, but is very limited skill wise, passive, little defense and is one of the worst defensive rebounders ever. Reeks of Hakeem Warrick. Pass in spades.
Dunn-Hield-Murray are the prospects I am interested in with our pick, but the current configuration of the roster is a huge problem.

Also this (actually, in response to a post by you regarding Dunn and Murray):

Yeah, Dunn's shot is not reliable, is TO prone and rushes things a little too much. Also seems to use only his right hand but Tony Parker does the same. The thing with him is that he looks like the only prospect with elite athleticism and speed for his position. He is a terror on the ball against smaller guards and looks like Wall in the open court. Unlike Bledsoe, he has been assisting a great % of his team offense.

Murray looks like a real shot maker. Seems to have many tricks and a killer instinct and could turn into a Lillard scoring wise, but he is even less of a PG than the guys we have. Hield shares those traits, plus alleged outstanding work ethic and character, minus age 22.

This top 3-6 is a great place to be if you need a guard, but we know what's our situation and Bender scares the s*** out of me. If Mirotic can't really shine I really doubt this one is trascending role player status and if I am drafting a role player stretch big at #4 it better be the total package with real weak side and pick and roll defensive chops, which Bender doesn't seem to have supposedly due to lack of focus and weak athleticism.

In part that's why I am so keen on Okafor for #4+, but also because Booker-Jahlil is has great potential to carry an offense long term on its own. Dunn-Booker would have my attention as well.

Anyway, there should be many teams looking to trade for our pick, it's just that after the craptacular season being left in this awkward situation is a huge bummer, especially knowing almost for sure that the two current guards are not getting moved.

[Ring_Wanted]

As for this draft. Mitchell is the only guy who obviously looks like a better pick than Jackson. Isaac has been hurt, Markkanen is really good and is definitely better right now, but I'm not upset we didn't pick him. Smith, fox, and Ntilikina fill a hole, but they've had their struggles, just like Jackson. Kuzma was never really an option and while he looks like a really nice player, I'm not convinced he's a better long term prospect than Jackson. So I'm still ok with Jackson as our pick right now. Time will tell if that holds true.

Markkanen looks terrific. Smith and Frank look better than Jackson too.

[specialsauce]

Uh Markkanen looks like a better pick. There’s no doubt about that . Maybe it changes at some point but not now

[The Bobster]

These players are 40 games into their careers. It's a little premature to judge what order they should have gone in the draft. Most of them are still to young to drink legally!

[Split T]

I said Markkanen was better, I just also said I'm not upset we didn't pick him. And Smith has shown more than Jackson, but he's also struggled and is shooting 40% just like Jackson. I like Frank, I think he's going to be a real nice player, but he's shooting 35% from the field. He's not playing better than Jackson right now.

Bobster had the best comment. It's way too early to judge these players and that's kind of what I was trying to say. Mitchell is the only guy right now I'd definitively say, "we should have taken him over Jackson"